What a difference a thousandth makes in a worn out barrel!

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  • Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    A couple of months ago, my father bought a P14 Enfield. He calls her "Pillsbury." Feeling like Indiana Jones on his Last Crusade, I said, "Daaad! You know that's not what the Doughboys carried!" :rolleye12 He said, "I know. 'Pillsbury.'" He has some Oddways about him :shrug:

    On the outside, Pillsbury has all the patina (that's what you call rust after you knock off the big chunks and oil what's left, right? :) ) of a 100 year old battle rifle. A few small chucks of stock are missing, but everything essential is there and serviceable. She is indeed beautiful...you know, for a military grade weapon designed to kill people :D

    p14 1.JPG

    On the inside, she headspaces good, probably thanks to a mismatched bolt. She's got some barrel pitting, but her rifling is fully intact (i.e. no chunks missing, goes all the way from chamber to muzzle and is definitely "there"). The ol' stick a cartridge in her muzzle and hope it doesn't fit test...well...:shrug:...I mean, the bullet went all the way in, but at least it stopped when it hit the case mouth, right?:innocent0

    We took her to the range for the first time a couple of weeks ago. It was a busy day with a match later in the afternoon and a bunch of other rifles to shoot. She and Dad put her first three rounds into the black of a target at 25 yds, so I felt confident we'd be on paper at 100.

    dad p14.jpg

    We went about the rest of our shooting without really scrutinizing the target. Then I put a bigger target stand at 100yds. His first hit was high and wide, barely on the paper. I don't have the greatest spotting scope in the world, but the hole looked funny. Maybe it knocked off a paster from an old hole? At least one was off the paper. When the third hole showed up as being "not round," I told him to stop throwing away ammo...'cuz we got problems:sad20:

    We talked about options. Maybe we could get over sized cast bullets (hollow base?!?) Maybe it was new barrel time? Maybe he would just not shoot past 25yds? Well...when I got home and started cleaning up my targets, I noticed that the third one really wasn't an option either:
    :shocked:

    p14 keyhole.JPG



    As I said, we didn't pay too much attention to the 25 yd targets beyond seeing a disturbance in the black:facepalm: If we had, we wouldn't have wasted ammo at 100. I had been wondering if PPU used boattail bullets in their 174gr. .303 ammo. Yup, they sure do:o (another interesting aside: next to the 2 o'clock keyhole, you can see three .22 holes just about touching each other. Those were the first three shots Dad fired out of my .22 Garand :party29: As long as he's got the right glasses on, he usually can shoot ok ;))

    This was pretty depressing. We've been incredibly lucky stumbling onto affordably priced old military rifles that headspace and shoot well. Our luck was bound to run out sometime...I just feel bad that it was on his rifle :(


    Before we did anything drastic or expensive with Pillsbury, I had one hope that I could try. I assumed that the PPU ammo used .311" bullets. I had a box of .312." Would .001" really make a difference? I worked up a load of Varget from the starting (38 gr maybe? I don't remember...but I wrote it down so I wouldn't have to remember;) ) and going up by .5gr. Katie and I took Pillsbury to the range the next day, and did this at 100yds:

    p14 target.JPG

    Pay no mind to the .22 holes in the X. That was Katie and her 10/22:rolleyes: There is, however, one .303 hole in the X. They aren't marked on that target, but as she spotted for me, Katie was documenting which hits where from which string.

    The low flinger was from the first string, and I'll take credit for that...I was maybe a little nervous about the rifle blowing up if I misread my scale or something :o In general, as the charge increased, the POI moved up. Other than the first, each group was well within what I consider tolerance for my ability with iron sights from a simple rest. Heck, I was just happy that all the holes were round:party29::D

    So, now I need to pick on of the lower charges (because the POI is good and, more importantly, why put more stress on the old girl than necessary :shrug:), and start loading. Even taking the low flinger out, the starting charge made the biggest groups, so I'm wondering if it was a little too low and maybe had wonky ignition or something? I don't know...I'm certainly not a master reloader by any means. I don't even have a chrony. :o I do know that starting charge +.5gr and +1.0gr made perfectly acceptable groups, mostly in the black. That should work for us ;)

    I know it is a stopgap measure and not a real solution, but hopefully she can hold onto enough of these bullets to take Dad through a couple of Axis vs. Allies shoots.

    What a difference a thousandth makes!
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    You should pull one of the bullets from the PPU , and actually measure .

    Hint - Inertia bullet pullers are inexpensive , and anyone who doesn't have one , should .
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    Hey. It has a front volley sight. Does it have a rear? An ascapee of refurb? May have good collector trade value for a better shooter.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I had a slew of .303 rifles back in my younger days. Some had good barrels, some not. If they had any rifling at all, I could get them to shoot using one particular bullet. This was the Lyman 314299 cast bullet. Using 16 grains of Alliant 2400 powder, this load would give me about 1600 FPS and, depending on the rifle, 2 to 3 inch groups even with poor rifling.

    I don't know if there are any bullet makers making that bullet but that is what you need. It is a bore riding bullet meaning the front part is a thicker diameter to get more of a bite into the rifling. If I remember correctly, the nose was .305 and the base was .314. This was made especially for the British rifles as most of them had erosion from the cordite powder that they used in their cartridges up until the Mk8 version.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I had a slew of .303 rifles back in my younger days. Some had good barrels, some not. If they had any rifling at all, I could get them to shoot using one particular bullet. This was the Lyman 314299 cast bullet. Using 16 grains of Alliant 2400 powder, this load would give me about 1600 FPS and, depending on the rifle, 2 to 3 inch groups even with poor rifling.

    I don't know if there are any bullet makers making that bullet but that is what you need. It is a bore riding bullet meaning the front part is a thicker diameter to get more of a bite into the rifling. If I remember correctly, the nose was .305 and the base was .314. This was made especially for the British rifles as most of them had erosion from the cordite powder that they used in their cartridges up until the Mk8 version.
    OP didnt mention the type of the second bullet used other than .312 but seated to an increased overall length and a flat based design can help with a cordite worn throat.
    Neck sized brass from the same rifle or with a minimally set back shoulder may even offer increased benefits at the bench as well as having a look at the bedding.
    Nice rifle, I wouldn't worry to much about stressing the design but would consider keeping a close eye on the brass by not continuing to set the shoulder back to far when resizing. .303 head-spaces on the rim but some still have a generous chamber cut.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Two words - Bearing Surface

    ( aka- the amount of the bullet that actually contacts the bbl . Round nose bullets may often have greater bearing surface than spitzers .)
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Two words - Bearing Surface

    ( aka- the amount of the bullet that actually contacts the bbl . Round nose bullets may often have greater bearing surface than spitzers .)
    Thats it! In the case of a worn throat though, a longer heel would probably have a greater degree of effect as the bullet is started into the bore. At least that's my humble opinion in getting old rifles to certain an improvement in accuracy.
    Experimentation often reveals whats best especially if the throat is worn to a greater degree (in calibers) than the ogive is larger in diameter.
    You never know what your going to get though, every rifle has a different personality subject to conditions of operation.
    Sometimes it could just be a cruddy carbon ring that has built up over time.
    Glad to see the op had a degree of success, nice old rifles need to be shot and kept together more often than jumping right off to a re-barrel or left to sit in the back of the vault.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    You should pull one of the bullets from the PPU , and actually measure .

    Hint - Inertia bullet pullers are inexpensive , and anyone who doesn't have one , should .
    I will. I agree that the intertia pullers are versatile and inexpensive, but I sprung the couple extra bucks for a collet puller, and I like it a lot better. The inertia puller always kinda gave me the heebie-jeebies (pounding on a live round), and left me with a mix of bullet and powder to sort out. The collet puller keeps everything organized.


    Hey. It has a front volley sight. Does it have a rear? An ascapee of refurb? May have good collector trade value for a better shooter.
    Yes, it has both volley sights...I deliberately didn't mention it just to see if anyone noticed ;) As for trade...well...that's not how we work. Our collecting of guns is like Cookie Monster's collecting of cookies...it really only goes one way :D We're still keeping an eye out for more rifles as spares or better shooters.


    I had a slew of .303 rifles back in my younger days. Some had good barrels, some not. If they had any rifling at all, I could get them to shoot using one particular bullet. This was the Lyman 314299 cast bullet. Using 16 grains of Alliant 2400 powder, this load would give me about 1600 FPS and, depending on the rifle, 2 to 3 inch groups even with poor rifling.

    I don't know if there are any bullet makers making that bullet but that is what you need. It is a bore riding bullet meaning the front part is a thicker diameter to get more of a bite into the rifling. If I remember correctly, the nose was .305 and the base was .314. This was made especially for the British rifles as most of them had erosion from the cordite powder that they used in their cartridges up until the Mk8 version.

    Thank you for this! That mould is still available. I usually cast pure lead for BP, but I'm not afraid to dabble in some alloys. I guess I will definitely have to come up with an expander die...I was kinda wondering just how much of an oversized bullet could be crammed into the case mouth...

    I know I won't be able to get a good pic of the rifling...but I might still try.:o I've seen worn out barrels that are almost smooth bore with just ghosts of rifling. This one, the rifling still looks very strong. I almost wonder if it had been a little oversized from day one? :shrug: Maybe I'll slug it just for fun.

    Those were some impressive key-holes.

    Good work with this. I wish you and your dad continued success. Nothing I like more than seeing an old war-horse being taken out and enjoyed!

    Like I said...those were the close up key holes that I discovered later, at home. I'm sure the look on my face was priceless, because I know I was saying "WT...F is this?!?!?" Seeing that from 25yds, it's a wonder they even hit paper at 100!

    Old Iron is good. It's even better if it still works :thumbsup:


    Curious if there are any "EY" marks on that rifle or bolt.?
    I don't recall seeing any when I had it apart, but I wasn't looking for that specifically. What's it mean? I was mostly looking for (but hoping not to find!) the dreaded "DP." If I recall correctly, the bolt is Winchester like the rifle, just a different serial number. I'll try to check tonight.


    OP didnt mention the type of the second bullet used other than .312 but seated to an increased overall length and a flat based design can help with a cordite worn throat.
    Neck sized brass from the same rifle or with a minimally set back shoulder may even offer increased benefits at the bench as well as having a look at the bedding.
    Nice rifle, I wouldn't worry to much about stressing the design but would consider keeping a close eye on the brass by not continuing to set the shoulder back to far when resizing. .303 head-spaces on the rim but some still have a generous chamber cut.
    They were round nose, soft point. They were indeed flat based with what appeared to the naked eye to be a lot more bearing surface. I'll try to get a pic next to one of the PPU spitzers when I pull it.


    Two words - Bearing Surface

    ( aka- the amount of the bullet that actually contacts the bbl . Round nose bullets may often have greater bearing surface than spitzers .)

    Yes Sir!:party29:

    I learned a lot today due to this thread. Thanks all!!
    I did too ;)


    great write up!
    well done on the bullet investigation.:thumbsup:
    Thank you sir! A lot of it was proper motivation. If it was for myself, I probably would have stuck the rifle in the back of the safe with all the other someday projects.:o
     

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    The EY would be stamped on the receiver, the bolt (handle top or bottom) and the butt near the disc. The stamp means "Emergency use onlY". Why the first and last letter I can't say. Usually scares people off, but it was only stamped that way because the rifle was getting old and there were no more spare parts, so if you broke it, it was unusable. I have only seen it in person on Pattern '14s with the volley sights intact. Also, only on Eddystone rifles. I was just wondering, thanks.
     

    Oddway Otts

    Active Member
    Mar 17, 2008
    359
    Harford County
    Those were some impressive key-holes.

    Good work with this. I wish you and your dad continued success. Nothing I like more than seeing an old war-horse being taken out and enjoyed!

    Hmm, is that old war horse me or the rifle (both, I guess :D). Anyway, I wasn't as devastated with the keyholes as my son. (Knew that he could come up with something). :party29:

    I think it is kind of neat that I have the only rifle that can place a bullet sideways.:P:P What a horrendous wound that could make in hunting or combat!
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I have learned over the past several years is that PPU is just good for getting to its brass. I have had good luck with Swedish PPU but Mosin, Mauser, 303brit all seemed to have undersized bullets. As if they are avoiding anything that remotely could cause pressure signs in an old Miilsurp barrel full of crud that someone does not clean and inspect before shooting. Heck, PPU Mosin Match ammo I was given shot worse than 1970s surplus.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    I checked the rifle: no "EY" stampings.:party29: (we need some kind of, "whew!" emoji) I was mistaken about the bolt; it's an Eddystone (which, I guess makes it less collectible and even more OK to shoot :D ). We tried slugging the barrel...we'll try again tomorrow :o Next time, it will be better explained to the helper how important it is to not let the slug drop out onto the ground and get deformed ;)

    I pulled one of the PPU bullets. It measured .3110 to .3111 (assuming I read the vernier on the micrometer correctly. Here it is next to the Hornady that measured .3122:

    p14 ammo1.JPG

    There definitely appears to be more bearing surface on the round nose. To me, the PPU Spitzer looks like it should weigh more than the RN, but they both weigh exactly 174gr. I was suprised to see that the bottom of the PPU is open...like the opposite of a gas check. I guess because the jacket comes past the lead, it's not going to get burned out or hurt anything. Maybe it makes manufacturing easier? It just seemed weird to me. :shrug:

    p14 ppu bullet.JPG
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Update:

    Pillsbury participated in her first Axis & Allies match last Saturday:https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=224263 I would definitely consider it an overall success, with round holes on target. We had a few little hitches along the way that will need a second look. The match involves three strings of ten rounds fired from the bench, with two and a half minutes for each string. They were nice enough to let me shoot in the first group, so I'd be able to help Dad and Pillsbury if they needed it (considering it was the second time he's shot her, and her third range trip since joining the family).

    We got off to a bumpy start. After loading and making ready, Dad realized that somehow the cloth he used to wipe his shooting glasses had gotten oil on it (dunno how that could have happened...:o...but I do know that none of our rifles will ever rust or jam from lack of lubrication/preservative :innocent0). Fire had already commenced, but it didn't take him long long to find a clean spot to wipe with. No worries...two minutes is plenty of time for 10 shots....:tap:

    I think he got the first shot off fine, but then was fighting to close the bolt. Not only was the next round very askew, the one under it in the mag was also wonky looking. As seconds ticked by, we realized that the follower was stuck at the bottom of the magazine. We turned her over and dumped all of them out on the table. We can still do this...single feeding nine rounds in a minute or so is quite do able...

    Then, the mag follower decided to become involved again. Now, my M1917 doesn't do this, but I guess it is a P-14 thing that the mag follower acts as bolt hold open when the mag is empty (i.e. you can't close the bolt without depressing the follower a little bit). That did not expedite the already somewhat frantic process one bit :o and, when time was called, there were still 3 unfired rounds on the table :sad20:

    I realized that, in my test firing, I never loaded more than four rounds in the mag (because I only had four of each loading), so maybe we'll just load three or four for the next round. In the middle of a timed competition is not a good venue for in depth evaluation...just need to adapt to what we have.

    ...And she didn't want to feed from the mag at all now. I gave the bolt a hard, "the Huns are bearing down on us" whack of desperation, and it did close, but it shouldn't be like that. I guess the round nosed bullets don't want to feed like the spitzers. That makes no sense, because they worked fine in my testing :shrug: but there is no denying that it wasn't working now.:rolleyes:

    We managed to get off all of the remaining rounds single fed. My Dad is naturally a pretty good shot. He is handicapped by the same things I am: iffy eyes and not practicing :o If you look at the scores, he would have certainly beaten me if he wasn't three rounds short. :clap: The target looks a little vertical stringy :eek:, but there was so much other stress going on that I'm not going to worry about that yet. Every shot fired would have put down a Hun (by making a round hole in them ;))

    Sooo...we've got some homework to do. The follower sticking...well, I guess we'll just have to play with it and see what it gets hung up on :shrug: The not chambering part...I keep beating my mind against the wall around the fact that it worked fine (with the exact same bullet, OAL, etc.) when I tested it :banghead:

    I wonder if it could have been getting rimlocked? According to the Bloke on the Range video, Lee Enfield mags are designed to prevent it. I've never had it happen in my SMLE or No.4, but the P-14 mag is another beast altogether :shrug:

    Dad mentioned that, because of the bolt being held back by the follower, he might not have been opening it all the way and may have been loading the rounds slightly forward of where they should have been. They all fit in, but I wonder if the weren't in right, or this contributed to a rimlock if he wasn't careful?

    In any case, I need to either load up some dummy rounds, or go to the range (when the clock is NOT ticking) and do some fiddling around to see what's going on. I'm thinking we'll try loading it from a charger, which should put the rounds exactly where they are supposed to be...then, who knows :shrug:

    We all still had a lot of fun at the match, and...round holes, :thumbsup: on target! :party29:
     

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