Article on Engraving Requirments

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    I would agree with their reasoning and the ATF's response, provided that it has an OEM marking and serial number that satisfies their requirements in the first place. The serial number, mfr, etc is all needed to 'convert' it to a title II firearm upon application for the stamp.

    I know that is the case with Title I firearms, since many build them on their own. They don't need to be engraved unless they are sold or transferred to someone else.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    I'm not a lawyer, but what the article proposes sorta makes sense. Although ATF specifies where and how to engrave an NFA firearm, it doesn't specify (as best as I can decipher) when to engrave it, other than to say that it must be engraved as part of the NFA process. If I'm missing something, I'm sure one of the lawyers here will correct me.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    From ATF 5320.4...

    § 479.102 How must firearms be
    identified?
    (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer,
    or maker of a firearm, must
    legibly identify the firearm as follows:
    (1) By engraving, casting,
    stamping (impressing), or otherwise
    conspicuously placing or
    causing to be engraved, cast,
    stamped (impressed) or placed on
    the frame or receiver thereof an
    individual serial number. The se92
    rial number must be placed in a
    manner not susceptible of being
    readily obliterated, altered, or removed,
    and must not duplicate
    any serial number placed by you
    on any other firearm. For firearms
    manufactured, imported, or made
    on and after January 30, 2002,
    the engraving, casting, or stamping
    (impressing) of the serial
    number must be to a minimum
    depth of .003 inch and in a print
    size no smaller than 1/16 inch;
    and
    (2) By engraving, casting,
    stamping (impressing), or otherwise
    conspicuously placing or
    causing to be engraved, cast,
    stamped (impressed), or placed
    on the frame, receiver, or barrel
    thereof certain additional information.
    This information must be
    placed in a manner not susceptible
    of being readily obliterated, altered
    or removed. For firearms
    manufactured, imported, or made
    on and after January 30, 2002,
    the engraving, casting, or stamping
    (impressing) of this information
    must be to a minimum depth
    of .003 inch. The additional information
    includes:
    (i) The model, if such designation
    has been made;
    (ii) The caliber or gauge;
    (iii) Your name (or recognized
    abbreviation) and also,
    when applicable, the name of
    the foreign manufacturer or
    maker;
    (iv) In the case of a domestically
    made firearm, the city
    and State (or recognized abbreviation
    thereof) where you
    as the manufacturer maintain
    your place of business, or
    where you, as the maker, made
    the firearm; and
    (v) In the case of an imported
    firearm, the name of the
    country in which it was manufactured
    and the city and State
    (or recognized abbreviation
    thereof) where you as the importer
    maintain your place of
    business. For additional require-
    ments relating to imported
    firearms, see Customs
    regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
    (b) The depth of all markings
    required by this section will be
    measured from the flat surface of
    the metal and not the peaks or
    ridges. The height of serial numbers
    required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
    section will be measured as the
    distance between the latitudinal
    ends of the character impression
    bottoms (bases).
    (c) The Director may authorize
    other means of identification upon
    receipt of a letter application from
    you, submitted in duplicate, showing
    that such other identification is reasonable
    and will not hinder the effective
    administration of this part.
    (d) In the case of a destructive
    device, the Director may authorize
    other means of identifying that
    weapon upon receipt of a letter application
    from you, submitted in duplicate,
    showing that engraving,
    casting, or stamping (impressing)
    such a weapon would be dangerous
    or impracticable.
    (e) A firearm frame or receiver
    that is not a component part of a
    complete weapon at the time it is
    sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
    of by you must be identified as required
    by this section.
    (f)(1) Any part defined as a machine
    gun, muffler, or silencer for the
    purposes of this part that is not a
    component part of a complete firearm
    at the time it is sold, shipped, or
    otherwise disposed of by you must
    be identified as required by this
    section.
    (2) The Director may authorize
    other means of identification of
    parts defined as machine guns
    other than frames or receivers
    and parts defined as mufflers or
    silencers upon receipt of a letter
    application from you, submitted in
    duplicate, showing that such other
    identification is reasonable and
    will not hinder the effective administration
    of this part.
    (Approved by the Office of Management and
    Budget under control number 1512––0550)
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    Not sure that applies to a trust item though.. I would think the trust name and info would have to be engraved as well in that case.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    The gray area that I see is that when the Title II weapon is manufactured, YOU are the manufacturer of that title II weapon (the original mfr built the title I weapon).. For this reason alone, I'd engrave it to be safe. My name, address etc.. or in my case, the trust's.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971

    Interesting. My initial thought was to agree with the author of the original article. However, if you read the document that the lawyer links above, it doesn't say you have to engrave it when you make it. In the section on the NFA, under "Making Firearms" it says:

    No person shall make a firearm unless
    he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written
    application, in duplicate, to make and
    register the firearm on the form prescribed
    by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax
    payable on the making and such payment
    is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed
    to the original application form; (c) identified
    the firearm to be made in the application
    form in such manner as the Secretary
    may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified
    himself in the application form in such
    manner as the Secretary may by regulations
    prescribe, except that, if such person
    is an individual, the identification
    must include his fingerprints and his photograph;
    and (e) obtained the approval of
    the Secretary to make and register the
    firearm and the application form shows
    such approval. Applications shall be denied
    if the making or possession of the
    firearm would place the person making
    the firearm in violation of law.

    (Sorry for wonky formatting.)

    Note that it does not say that you have to give it a serial number when you make it.

    Under the section on "Identification of Firearms," it says:

    (a) Identification of firearms other
    than destructive devices. Each manufacturer
    and importer and anyone making
    a firearm shall identify each firearm, other
    than a destructive device, manufactured,
    imported, or made by a serial number
    which may not be readily removed, obliterated,
    or altered, the name of the manufacturer,
    importer, or maker, and such
    other identification as the Secretary may
    by regulations prescribe.
    (b) Firearms without serial number.
    Any person who possesses a firearm,
    other than a destructive device, which
    does not bear the serial number and other
    information required by subsection (a) of
    this section shall identify the firearm with
    a serial number assigned by the Secretary
    and any other information the Secretary
    may by regulations prescribe.

    So far it doesn't look as if you have to give it a new serial number when you make it.

    Then, a bit further down, there is a section on "Prohibited Acts." In there, it says:

    It shall be unlawful for any person -

    (i) to receive or possess a firearm
    which is not identified by a serial number
    as required by this chapter;

    There is also a section later on dealing with how the engraving has to be done.
    So basically, they don't say that you have to engrave it when you make it, but it is illegal to possess one that isn't engraved.

    Unless I am reading that wrong.

    From looking at the original article, it seems that Nick Leghorn got told this in person by "someone" at ATF. I wouldn't rely on it unless they publish it officially.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    Yes, it seems a little obscured to me... better to err on the side of caution to be safe.. lol

    I use a trust for NFA items and technically I see it as the trust is the mfr and most of my NFA items are self-made, so therefore I would engrave all with the needed info, since there is none present in the first place. I have to 'create it' to file the form 1 and mark it accordingly before completing it's manufacture.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    So that's one thing that I meant to mention earlier:

    You would think, if they require you to mark it when it's made, that somewhere on the Form 1 would appear a box where they require you to give them the new Serial No. and all that stuff.

    The SBR that I did a Form 1 for last month they just know as being a Palmetto lower with a Palmetto Seral #.
     

    Adolph Oliver Bush

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 13, 2015
    1,940
    See also the Code of Federal Regulations at:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.92




    Note the
    licensed manufacturers and licensed importers
    part. I'll follow-up with more info regarding DIY markings when I can provide the cites, instead of yet another unsupported internet opinion without references*. When considering required markings, recall that run-of-the-mill homemade stuff like 80% to now 100% AR lowers not made by licensed manufacturers is different from SBRs and the like.

    *I can't resist. I recall reading that they only needed to be marked if and when transferred......
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Interesting. My initial thought was to agree with the author of the original article. However, if you read the document that the lawyer links above, it doesn't say you have to engrave it when you make it. In the section on the NFA, under "Making Firearms" it says:



    (Sorry for wonky formatting.)

    Note that it does not say that you have to give it a serial number when you make it.

    Under the section on "Identification of Firearms," it says:



    So far it doesn't look as if you have to give it a new serial number when you make it.

    Then, a bit further down, there is a section on "Prohibited Acts." In there, it says:



    There is also a section later on dealing with how the engraving has to be done.
    So basically, they don't say that you have to engrave it when you make it, but it is illegal to possess one that isn't engraved.

    Unless I am reading that wrong.

    From looking at the original article, it seems that Nick Leghorn got told this in person by "someone" at ATF. I wouldn't rely on it unless they publish it officially.

    Here is part of the law that you quoted:

    (a) Identification of firearms other
    than destructive devices. Each manufacturer
    and importer and anyone making
    a firearm shall identify
    each firearm, other
    than a destructive device, manufactured,
    imported, or made by a serial number
    which may not be readily removed, obliterated,
    or altered, the name of the manufacturer,
    importer, or maker, and such
    other identification as the Secretary may
    by regulations prescribe.


    Seems pretty clear to me. If you are making a SBR on a Form 1, then you need to identify the maker and any other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

    I am going to engrave the trust name and location on my Form 1 SBRs. Guess I am going to have to do that with the SBS too since I will be buying it with an 18.5" barrel to start with. Same goes for the suppressors I am going to build.

    I think not engraving anything on a Form 1 is playing with fire.

    I have not even looked at the regulations prescribed by the Secretary.
     

    bobthefisher

    Durka ninja
    Aug 18, 2010
    1,214
    Definitely not where you are!
    As much as I wanted this to be true, "27 CFR 479.102" clearly distinguishes manufacturer and maker. Especially on line §479.102(a)(2)(iv):
    In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
    ...

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/479.102

    27 CFR Chapter II, Subchapter B, Part 479 specifically applies to NFA items, thus the reason why we don't have to engrave homemade non-NFA firearms. Good to know people are still reading and dissecting the law. As for me personally, it's always good to find the occasional exploitable mistake from lazy law makers ;)

    However this one is pretty much settled. Get it engraved.
     

    Striknine

    Active Member
    Jan 19, 2013
    187
    Looking for a place that will engrave an AR lower and AK pistol receiver close to the Pasadena MD area. I have been trying to contact Chesapeake Laser Engravers which is very close to me, but no one answers the phone. Any other recommended companies not too far away?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Not super close, but Engage and United in MoCo engrave. As does Bollingers.

    All are IPs here and support the forum.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,951
    Messages
    7,260,281
    Members
    33,353
    Latest member
    sstrum

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom