New AR Pistol

knastera · May 8, 2017

outrider58 said:
The whole desire in co-witnessing is when or if your red dot goes down, you flip up your BUSs and you maintain the same hold and sight picture without having to remove your now dead red dot.

That is exactly why I an setting it up that way. That does require both front and rear sights. My extended rail arrives tonight, so I'll be able to make that setup.

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Blaster229 · May 8, 2017

kent said:
(was that in reference to my comment?) You need front and rear iron sights to cowitness with a red dot. Having only a front sight is useless with a red dot.

So, the red dot doesn't act as the "rear sight"?

Why in the hell would someone line up the iron rear, red dot, and iron front all together?
That's asinine. Then get rid of the red dot.
Use a red dot. If it goes down, flip up both rear and front iron sights.
Use the red dot when you have a fixed front.
The idea of a red dot is quick acquisition and not long range accuracy. It's not a scope replacement.

Biggfoot44 · May 8, 2017

The concept of Co-Witness would involve the actual dot of the Red Dot sight to be inline with the front and rear sights . The usual practice is to fold down rear, or both , sights when using Red Dot. If a fixed front sight , the Dot would usually appear at the top of the front sight, as kind of a red glowing tritium dot, from shooter's eye view.

Presumable what is being discussed in this thread is " Red Dot mounted to a height above bore centerline, that would be Co-Witness , if a rear sight were in use " .

A firearm with front sight only, it is Not catagorically useless. It is as useful as a firearm with only a front sight. Traditional shotguns typically have a front bead only, with the "rear sight" duties being the placement of the gun on shoulder and cheek. For an AR that is shouldered this would translate drectly. If used with a cheek weld only, you could probably work that out also.

But even for a handgun used as a handgun, still not useless. One of the "Alterntive Sighting Methods" for fast, close shooting I sometimes teach involves ignoring rear sight, and using front sight only as a quasi shotgun bead. ( I don't teach it often nowdays, simply because not very many handgun rookies have a knowlege of shotgun shooting.)

Major03 · May 10, 2017

Blaster229 said:
So, the red dot doesn't act as the "rear sight"?

Why in the hell would someone line up the iron rear, red dot, and iron front all together?
That's asinine. Then get rid of the red dot.
Use a red dot. If it goes down, flip up both rear and front iron sights.
Use the red dot when you have a fixed front.
The idea of a red dot is quick acquisition and not long range accuracy. It's not a scope replacement.

Nope, the red dot doesn't act as a rear sight. The brilliance of the red dot is that you just put it on the target and don't have to worry about lining up a rear and front sight...very quick.

If you have flip up BUIS, you should flip them to the down position. And you're correct, BUIS should really only be flipped up if the red dot malfunctions.

The co-witnessing the sights vs. lower 1/3 comes into play if you have a standard gas block and fixed front sight post.

Blaster229 · May 10, 2017

Major03 said:
Nope, the red dot doesn't act as a rear sight. The brilliance of the red dot is that you just put it on the target and don't have to worry about lining up a rear and front sight...very quick.

If you have flip up BUIS, you should flip them to the down position. And you're correct, BUIS should really only be flipped up if the red dot malfunctions.

The co-witnessing the sights vs. lower 1/3 comes into play if you have a standard gas block and fixed front sight post.

I understand how a red dot works. :rolleyes:

Someone up above was saying that you have to line up the rear sight, with the red dot, to the front sight to make a "co-witness" and I say no. If anything, the red dot could "act" as your rear sight if the shooter feels the need to "align sights". The whole idea with most red dots is fast acquisition and getting a shot off.

If someone feels the need to "co-witness" the red dot (without the rear sight up) it should be on/at/near the fixed front sight on your point of aim. Not that this is even necessary.

Co witnessing is stupid as a mandatory/necessary means of shooting the rifle. I mean if it were so important, then why are flip up sights in the down position when using a red dot? LOL

I am getting ready to grind my front sight off my 6721 because it is a pain in the ass and distracting with my red dot.

hogarth · May 10, 2017

Blaster229 said:
I understand how a red dot works.

Someone up above was saying that you have to line up the rear sight, with the red dot, to the front sight to make a "co-witness" and I say no. If anything, the red dot could "act" as your rear sight if the shooter feels the need to "align sights". The whole idea with most red dots is fast acquisition and getting a shot off.

If someone feels the need to "co-witness" the red dot (without the rear sight up) it should be on/at/near the fixed front sight on your point of aim. Not that this is even necessary.

Co witnessing is stupid as a mandatory/necessary means of shooting the rifle. I mean if it were so important, then why are flip up sights in the down position when using a red dot? LOL

I am getting ready to grind my front sight off my 6721 because it is a pain in the ass and distracting with my red dot.

Blaster,

I think there was a communication breakdown on this thread.

Cowitnessing is the alignment of the dot in the RDS with the front and rear sights such that, when you look through the rear sight, the red dot sits right on top of the front post.

The reason to do this is to make it easier to zero. You zero the irons, then just look through the rear sight and adjust the dot to be on top of the front sight.

Then, if you have folding sights, you fold them down and just use the RDS. If the RDS breaks but is still clear, you pop up the irons and are good to go. If the RDS is occluded, well, that's why you use a QD mount. Pop it off, flip up irons, and get back to solving problems.

Using a red dot simultaneously with the irons in the same plane is kinda dumb. If you use fixed irons, then you need to mount the RDS high enough so that when you are looking at the dot, the irons are a little visible in the lower 1/3 of the RDS. If RDS breaks but is clear, you lower your cheekweld slightly and start solving problems using the irons. If the RDS is occluded, you remove with QD and solve problems with the irons.

Edit: If you have folding front and rear buis, then you can use lower 1/3 cowitnesses or absolute cowitnesses. If any of the sights are fixed (front or front and rear), lower 1/3 is the better way to go.

knastera · May 10, 2017

My rig is going to be simple, back ups with a holographic in the middle, all co-witnessed. For precision sighting, holographic off, backups up. For quick engagement, backups down, holographic on. Same cheek weld for all.

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knastera · May 10, 2017

Here is the final setup. I added the low profile rail extension and Tacticon pop up sights with a Pinty multi-reticle, red/green holographic sight. The Pinty has the same profile as the sights, so co-witnessing is simple. It has a nice big window, so it is easy to use the pop-ups when it is turned off.

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Rob1035 · Jun 8, 2017

So that's an "absolute co-witness", vs the "lower 1/3" setup a lot of people run. Correct?

knastera · Jun 8, 2017

rmaybach said:
So that's an "absolute co-witness", vs the "lower 1/3" setup a lot of people run. Correct?

I'm not familiar with those terms. I run this with either the pop-ups or the holographic. I confirmed on Tuesday evening that using either sight, my rounds are hitting in the same place.

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outrider58 · Jun 8, 2017

knastera said:
I'm not familiar with those terms. I run this with either the pop-ups or the holographic. I confirmed on Tuesday evening that using either sight, my rounds are hitting in the same place.

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http://progunfighter.com/co-witness/

knastera · Jun 8, 2017

Thanks for the explanation. Absolute. I like being able to transition from one to the other with the same point of aim in the same place.

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