Questions: Utah Concealed Carry

JustCuz · May 6, 2012

I read here a lot, but only post when I feel that I have something worth adding. That said, I just finished the Genesis Firearms Utah CCW Course, and I have to say that it was enjoyable and informative. I honestly didn't think I would take away much new info from the course, but I did, and I'm glad I decided to take it. Well worth the cost. Consider this my recommendation and seal of approval!

Brychan · May 7, 2012

swinokur said:
The attached AG opinion says you MAY NOT have FOPA protections while traveling in MD on your way to or from another state. Your statement that says MD cannot stop you from transporting is not true. They can most certainly stop and arrest you for doing it. There is no case law on it. This is the reason MDENG and others recommend that to be on the safe side while in MD, comply with MD 4-203 statute for transport and activities.

FOPA only requires a locked container if the vehicle has no trunk. Another complication is how you would prove to a court that if you were stopped in MD, where you reside, how would you prove your destination or origin was out of state for purposes of FOPA?

Be safe. While in MD as a MD resident, transport under MD 4-203 (range trip, gun shop, etc.) going into or out of MD, then follow FOPA or the carry laws of that state.

I have attached the 2 different AG opinions to furthur muddy the waters.

Is this the same AG who says G & S is constitutional because you can carry a long gun without a permit? The way I see it is the AG can't even really decipher MD's poorly written firearm laws.

Yes as long as the firearm is unloaded, incased and out of reach, i.e. in the trunk and you are transporting for a lawful purpose, there is nothing saying you can't transport out of state for lawful purpose. Say a informal range trip in PA or VA.

This is just my take on this, I'm not a lawyer, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express, I did grow up and live in free states (AZ, AK and a few others), so my BGOS is still a mild case.

Peace

Mdeng · May 7, 2012

justcuz said:
I read here a lot, but only post when I feel that I have something worth adding. That said, I just finished the Genesis Firearms Utah CCW Course, and I have to say that it was enjoyable and informative. I honestly didn't think I would take away much new info from the course, but I did, and I'm glad I decided to take it. Well worth the cost. Consider this my recommendation and seal of approval!

Thank you for attending and the kind words.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

Brychan said:
Is this the same AG who says G & S is constitutional because you can carry a long gun without a permit? The way I see it is the AG can't even really decipher MD's poorly written firearm laws.

Yes as long as the firearm is unloaded, incased and out of reach, i.e. in the trunk and you are transporting for a lawful purpose, there is nothing saying you can't transport out of state for lawful purpose. Say a informal range trip in PA or VA.

This is just my take on this, I'm not a lawyer, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express, I did grow up and live in free states (AZ, AK and a few others), so my BGOS is still a mild case.

Peace

The point is you can still be PROSECUTED if the state wants to. MD has stated their opinion on transport. You may feel differently but as stated

You MAY beat the rap, but not the ride.

Your decision. If it were me, I'd transport under MD 4-203 until I'm out of the state. But feel free to try to use FOPA as an affirmative defense if you are arrested.

Good luck with that.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

What is the real difference between FOPA and MD 4-230?

Unloaded, encased, out of reach i.e the trunk.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

MD 4-203 DOES NOT require a firearm to be in the trunk or out of reach. You can legally even have it on your hip.. MD 4-203 only requires unloaded and in either an enclosed holster or case. But...

FOPA also does not specify what activities other than transport are permitted. 4-203 is very specific.

Read the statute.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

I did

So you are saying if I followed FOPA to transport my handgun out of state, unloaded, out of reach, Say in my range bag in my trunk on my way Pa for a lawful purpose, I would be in the wrong and could be arrested? But if I have it holstered on my hip (unloaded of course) but instead of going to Pa I'm going to say AGC I'm fine. I'm really missing something here and truly not trying to be a smart ass.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

What is missing is "what" you are doing when and if stopped. If the state wants to be a dick they can say the defendant was transporting a weapon for a reason not listed in 4.203. Going to another state is not on the list of activiities in 4-203.

What the AG said was that under 4-203 travel to another state is not legal under MD law or FOPA and since you cannot "carry and possess" in MD FOPA might not apply.

Look, the chances of a prosecution are slim, but saying MD can't stop and prosecute you is just not true.

I'm sticking to my story of headed to a range or LGS if stopped in MD. You have NO way of proving your intent to go out of state if you are stopped in MD. Even if you could, the AG has said it MAY not be an affirmative defense.

That's my plan.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

So it boils down to the powers that be believing what you tell them. They could arrest you if you tell them you are going to the range whether it be AGC in Md or Freestate in Pa or NRA range in Va, any way you are suppose to be covered under 4-203 as you are going to an informal shooting event, if they don't believe you you take a ride. I know it would help if you have a AGC range badge or a reciept from a range on your way home. No matter how in the right you are you can take ride.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

Well yes. That's true in many encounters with LE. But it may be far easier to prove and LEGAL to testify you were headed to AGC in MD or the NRA Range in VA (where I shoot) than to testify you're simply traveling and going out of state. The AG has said going or returning from a range or LGS is a legal reason to be transporting. What the AG also said is simple travel out of state MAY not be.

Saying FOPA protects me in MD may not true according to the AG.

Which is easier to do? And according to the AG, legal as well?

Brychan · May 7, 2012

Yeah, I guess after Woolard, we need a case of simple transport out of state, so a Fed Judge can educate the AG on transport according to the constitution.

Why is "Shall not be Infringed" so hard to understand? - Don't answer, rhetorical question

swinokur · May 7, 2012

You got it friend.

Be safe.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

Brychan said:
Yeah, I guess after Woolard, we need a case of simple transport out of state, so a Fed Judge can educate the AG on transport according to the constitution.

Why is "Shall not be Infringed" so hard to understand? - Don't answer, rhetorical question

If G & S is finally struck down, many laws in MD will have to be amended. 4-203 will be one of them.

Threeband · May 7, 2012

Brychan said:
... there is nothing saying you can't transport out of state for lawful purpose. Say a informal range trip in PA or VA.

He did specify transport for a Maryland-lawful purpose.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

That's the sticking point. MD LAW doesn't say "lawful purpose" It does specify ranges, LGS, organized shoots, etc.

That's specifically legal under MD law.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Md law does not specifiy that the range, shooting event, LGS must be in Md.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

4-203:

(3) the carrying of a handgun on the person or in a vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun to or from the place of legal purchase or sale, or to or from a bona fide repair shop, or between bona fide residences of the person, or between the bona fide residence and place of business of the person, if the business is operated and owned substantially by the person if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(4) the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

No mention of location in or out of state. No one said it was. That's why it a legal activity as specified. But the statute is specific. There is no mention of "lawful purpose" as you stated.

Brychan said:
I did

So you are saying if I followed FOPA to transport my handgun out of state, unloaded, out of reach, Say in my range bag in my trunk on my way Pa for a lawful purpose, I would be in the wrong and could be arrested? But if I have it holstered on my hip (unloaded of course) but instead of going to Pa I'm going to say AGC I'm fine. I'm really missing something here and truly not trying to be a smart ass.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

I was using lawful purpose to cover all of this: a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show.
Instead of writing it all out.

swinokur · May 7, 2012

Then you are correct. The statute does not say where the allowed activity is located. That's why it's a viable defense IMO.

But saying while in MD "I'm traveling out of state so FOPA protects me" MAY not be.

Brychan · May 7, 2012

Uncle

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