Newbie Question about MG/SBR/Suppressers

Sorry for being lazy and asking what probably is a repetitive question but you guys is more straightforward than Fed/MD regulations. I previously walked by the gun show tables with above type weapons because of cost and not knowing how to acquire them but things change with age. Does one "form/fee" allow one to buy a SBR MG with a suppressor or does one need to go through the process for each? Is this a one time fee or an annual fee? How long does the process take to get these?

If you could point to a good website(s) that would be great.

Thanks.

Most of us could write for DAYS on this stuff, but in short:

The purchase of any NFA item by a consumer requires the payment of a tax. That tax is $200 for machine guns, SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, and Destructive Devices. It's $5 on an "Any Other Weapon." You have to pay that tax on EACH item, so if you're buying a suppressed machine gun, it's $200 for the machine gun and another $200 for the suppressor (in that specific case, being a machine gun "trumps" being an SBR so you don't pay separately there).

There is an application that you fill out when you buy an NFA item. For a consumer, it's called a "Form 4." You fill out the Form 4 when you buy the item, and send that and your $200 (or $5) tax payment to the ATF, and then you want a bajillion years (currently about 5 months for a Form 4, but that's rising). Then you get your "tax stamp" (yes, just like the ones that the colonists rioted over) back from the ATF and you can take possession of your item. The tax is a one time "transfer tax" on the item being sold. (Also, to put other myths to rest, you don't sign away your rights to the ATF or anyone else, they can't come to your house and inspect it without a warrant, etc.)

You also have the option of making your own NFA items. In this case, you fill out a thing called a "Form 1" which is an application to make an NFA item. You pay a $200 tax (they're all $200 to make, but you can't legally make machineguns if you're a regular consumer) and when you get the stamped Form 1 back a few months later, you can make the whatever it is.

The fine legal details are a little more complicated than that, but that's the process writ large.

As a side note, there is a HUGE run on the market with all things NFA right now because the ATF just put out some new regulations that take effect July 13th. This will make it marginally tougher for some people (those who use a Trust to purchase) and much easier for others (those who purchase as an individual) and everyone is running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to make it in under the deadline. The new regulations don't substantially change the overall process, though.

Hawkeye,

Thank you for the response. I was surprised that MD/MSP do not have their hands in things. Overall, not as bad as I thought it would be. Now the search begins.

What Hawkeye said.

Depending on what you want to do, if you were to permently mount your supressor on your barrell so that the combined length was 16.1in plus, it would no longer be considered an SBR, and only one stamp would be required. Of course the supressor could not be moved to a different gun if that is or is not a concern.

You mentioned MG in a listing of NFA items. Transferable MG's are out there, but they are a whole ballgame of $$ compared to the others. Others can chime in with latest market prices, but very simplified, bargin basement cheap full autos start in high four figures.

MACs low end 4K to 6K, M16s, mid 20K and up, M60s mid-30K, the bargain gun these days is a Ruger AC556 if you can find one.

vetogunban said:

Hawkeye,

Thank you for the response. I was surprised that MD/MSP do not have their hands in things. Overall, not as bad as I thought it would be. Now the search begins.

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Any time.

What, specifically, are you looking for? A lot of us here know the market fairly well and might be able to help point you the right way.

A1Uniform said:

MACs low end 4K to 6K, M16s, mid 20K and up, M60s mid-30K, the bargain gun these days is a Ruger AC556 if you can find one.

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Like these guys. These guys know their junk.

A1Uniform said:

MACs low end 4K to 6K, M16s, mid 20K and up, M60s mid-30K, the bargain gun these days is a Ruger AC556 if you can find one.

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I keep trying to convince my dad to get one. The AC-556s are really due for an upwards price correction soon.

There is no annual fee from the Feds on any NFA device. Pay the $200 tax and go.

But I think there is an annual MD fee for MGs, $10, IIRC.

Many people do trusts. In the past it made the application process easier. After July 13, not so much. But legally, if you buy or make an NFA item as and individual, only YOU may have access to it. Meaning no one else can have the combo to your safe. It cannot go to the range without you being present, etc. With a trust, all trustees have access.

Newb question as well...so if I'm taking a MPX pistol and SBR'ring it, Form 1? If I buy a lower and SBR it, form 1 also? Sorry only have a few suppressors, the SBR thing is new to me.

vetogunban said:

Hawkeye,

Thank you for the response. I was surprised that MD/MSP do not have their hands in things. Overall, not as bad as I thought it would be. Now the search begins.

Click to expand...

MSP definitely has a hand in your NFA purchases. Especially now with the new regs. Starting in July you will have to get finger printed for trust and if you go the individual route you have to get a sign off from your local CLEO (Chief Law enforcement officer) in this case it is usually the MSP. You can get your local sheriff to do it if he is good sheriff. If you purchase a Machine gun you need to register it with MSP and pay an annual fee of $10 every year.

Speed3 said:

Newb question as well...so if I'm taking a MPX pistol and SBR'ring it, Form 1? If I buy a lower and SBR it, form 1 also? Sorry only have a few suppressors, the SBR thing is new to me.

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To SBR any receiver you need to Form1 if you are making it. FYI once you SBR the MPX pistol, or any lower, you cannot convert it back to a pistol.

Klunatic said:

MSP definitely has a hand in your NFA purchases. Especially now with the new regs. Starting in July you will have to get finger printed for trust and if you go the individual route you have to get a sign off from your local CLEO (Chief Law enforcement officer) in this case it is usually the MSP.

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That is incorrect.

Yes, with the 41F rules, you will gave to submit fingerprints for "responsible persons" for a trust. There is no requirement that the prints be taken by law enforcement, though. You can do them at home.

The 41F rule actually totally removes the requirement to get CLEO signoff if you apply as an individual. Instead, you have to do CLEO notification - you just send them the notification form, and there's no requirement that they do anything with it. There is also not any requirement that the "CLEO" be MSP. (There wasn't a requirement that it was MSP in the past, either, but they would sign off for anyone in Maryland when some local jurisdictions wouldn't.)

So to sum up: you can do your own fingerprints and photos at home, and there is NO CLEO signoff requirement any more after July 13th.

If you purchase a Machine gun you need to register it with MSP and pay an annual fee of $10 every year.

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This is correct, and it's the only place that MSP is required now or will be required in the future to be part of the NFA process.

Klunatic said:

To SBR any receiver you need to Form1 if you are making it. FYI once you SBR the MPX pistol, or any lower, you cannot convert it back to a pistol.

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That is incorrect.
If a firearm starts as a pistol, it can be built into a rifle and then back into a pistol as many times as you like. If it started life as a rifle, it's a rifle forever. SBRs are just like any other rifle, and if I want to reconfigure my SBR (that I first built into a pistol) back into a pistol, I can do that whenever I want, just like you can put a 16"+ barrel on to an SBR and while it's configured like that it falls under regular rifle rules. (i.e. if you want to take your SBR to a state where they're illegal, you can put a long barrel upper on it and it's a regular rifle.)

If you no longer wish to have it be an SBR, you can contact the ATF and have it removed from the register and it will no longer be an SBR. Then you can build it permanently into a regular rifle, or, if it was a pistol first, back into a pistol.

Thanks for all of the information. I was looking for 14" barrel and 5.56.

vetogunban said:

Thanks for all of the information. I was looking for 14" barrel and 5.56.

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To be honest, I don't see much point in bothering over 2 inches of barrel. If you're going to spend the $$ for NFA to get an SBR, go shorter. Or get a suppressor...those are nice.

Klunatic said:

FYI once you SBR the MPX pistol, or any lower, you cannot convert it back to a pistol.

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Not true. You can remove the SBR/SBS status of any firearm by simply notifying the ATF.

Re #13 &14:

Presuming somthing AR-ish , there isn't much logical point to a 14in SBR . If you want that length bbl on purpose just use a permently mounted muzzle devoce to bring bbl oal to 16.1, and skip all the paperwork and transport restrictions. There are a buncha off the shelf option involving 14.5 in bbls.

If you're going to deal with NFA, might as well make it meaningfully shorter. Lots of options with 12.5 and 11.5in AR bbls.

Shot plenty of AC556s, definitely the least desirable 5.56 for a reason.

ericoak said:

Shot plenty of AC556s, definitely the least desirable 5.56 for a reason.

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But still a bargain. Look at the avail 5.56 cal MGs:

• AC556: proprietary mags
• M16: 2x+ the price (but you can swap uppers - HUGE advantage that comes w/ a cost)
• AUG: 2x the price - - no upper swaps but you can quickly swap barrels. I think you can convert one to 300blk and even 9mm
• FNC: 1.5x+ the price. You can swap VERY limited uppers. (are other cal FNC uppers avail?)
• HK33/53: 3x the price for a registered receiver - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags.
• HK sear: 4x+ the price. Can swap to other caliber hosts. Arguably more flexible than a M16 (but more expensive per swap.)
• Valmet M76: 3x the price - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags
• M11/9 w/ Sabre: ~1x price. Sabre discontinued. Can also shoot multitude of 9mm/380 uppers. The Sabre is HEAVY and seems to have reliability problems (I know of one in the club that has broken MAJOR parts several times - doesn't seem like a viable long term solution.)

So the AC556 stacks up fairly against its competitors. Its not a 30s job, but I think you could swap a mini14 300blk or 7.62x39 barrel/bolt into it (not sure of the mags on the x39 version) for cal changes. Since the barrels are threaded (vs pinned) you can swap back and forth w/o destroying the receiver. Though still not something the average user could do.

The short barrel AC556 isn't nearly as whippy as its non-nfa mini14 cousin is hounded for. You could even make a heavy barrel for it using the later version mini14 larger diameter gas block.

Decent chassis stocks (Sage/SCAR) and optics mounts exist.

smdub said:

But still a bargain. Look at the avail 5.56 cal MGs:

• AC556: proprietary mags
• M16: 2x+ the price (but you can swap uppers - HUGE advantage that comes w/ a cost)
• AUG: 2x the price - - no upper swaps but you can quickly swap barrels. I think you can convert one to 300blk and even 9mm
• FNC: 1.5x+ the price. You can swap VERY limited uppers. (are other cal FNC uppers avail?)
• HK33/53: 3x the price for a registered receiver - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags.
• HK sear: 4x+ the price. Can swap to other caliber hosts. Arguably more flexible than a M16 (but more expensive per swap.)
• Valmet M76: 3x the price - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags
• M11/9 w/ Sabre: ~1x price. Sabre discontinued. Can also shoot multitude of 9mm/380 uppers. The Sabre is HEAVY and seems to have reliability problems (I know of one in the club that has broken MAJOR parts several times - doesn't seem like a viable long term solution.)

So the AC556 stacks up fairly against its competitors. Its not a 30s job, but I think you could swap a mini14 300blk or 7.62x39 barrel/bolt into it (not sure of the mags on the x39 version) for cal changes. Since the barrels are threaded (vs pinned) you can swap back and forth w/o destroying the receiver. Though still not something the average user could do.

The short barrel AC556 isn't nearly as whippy as its non-nfa mini14 cousin is hounded for. You could even make a heavy barrel for it using the later version mini14 larger diameter gas block.

Decent chassis stocks (Sage/SCAR) and optics mounts exist.

Click to expand...

All that's true, but there is a reason people pay much more for the other 5.56 guns with more problems.

Should have bought the FNC sear 5 years ago instead of my M10.

smdub said:

But still a bargain. Look at the avail 5.56 cal MGs:

• AC556: proprietary mags
• M16: 2x+ the price (but you can swap uppers - HUGE advantage that comes w/ a cost)
• AUG: 2x the price - - no upper swaps but you can quickly swap barrels. I think you can convert one to 300blk and even 9mm
• FNC: 1.5x+ the price. You can swap VERY limited uppers. (are other cal FNC uppers avail?)
• HK33/53: 3x the price for a registered receiver - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags.
• HK sear: 4x+ the price. Can swap to other caliber hosts. Arguably more flexible than a M16 (but more expensive per swap.)
• Valmet M76: 3x the price - no upper/cal swaps, proprietary mags
• M11/9 w/ Sabre: ~1x price. Sabre discontinued. Can also shoot multitude of 9mm/380 uppers. The Sabre is HEAVY and seems to have reliability problems (I know of one in the club that has broken MAJOR parts several times - doesn't seem like a viable long term solution.)

So the AC556 stacks up fairly against its competitors. Its not a 30s job, but I think you could swap a mini14 300blk or 7.62x39 barrel/bolt into it (not sure of the mags on the x39 version) for cal changes. Since the barrels are threaded (vs pinned) you can swap back and forth w/o destroying the receiver. Though still not something the average user could do.

The short barrel AC556 isn't nearly as whippy as its non-nfa mini14 cousin is hounded for. You could even make a heavy barrel for it using the later version mini14 larger diameter gas block.

Decent chassis stocks (Sage/SCAR) and optics mounts exist.

Click to expand...

All that's true, but there is a reason people pay much more for the other 5.56 guns with more problems.

Should have bought the FNC sear 5 years ago instead of my M10.

Any luck getting the Sear to run in the PTR32?