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  • EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    TownHall.com -
    The Fight for Your Gun Rights

    Washington and Colorado are ground zero … Maryland too, but we're not mentioned in the article. Dave Kopel and Alan Gottlieb are leading the charge in their respective states.

    The battle in the Evergreen State has taken the form of two competing ballot measures. Because enemies of the Second Amendment have failed to win new gun-control laws from the legislature, they are turning to the initiative process.

    Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, contends that additional burdens sought by the anti-gun-right side would not only weaken self-defense rights right now but also serve as precedent for further assaults.

    I-591 therefore also would {additionally} prohibit any confiscation of firearms without due process. Advocates of victim disarmament “are going with what they can try and get away with right now, but their ultimate goal is to confiscate firearms. We know that; that’s where the anti-gun-rights movement is. So we’re protecting against that.”

    However, I-594 backers have big wallets and have already dumped an estimated $1 million into the campaign ... largely bankrolled by wealthy Seattle venture capitalist Nick Hanauer {owner of aQuantive, the online advertising company that sold to Microsoft for $6 billion} with some hefty donations in sums of $50,000, $25,000, $10,000 and $5,000.

    The situation is worse in Colorado, where state lawmakers have already passed bills, signed into law by Governor Hickenlooper, to virtually nullify the Second Amendment in the Centennial State.

    Coloradans have responded to the legislative onslaught with two major counter-offenses.

    First, 55 sheriffs from around Colorado have joined forces with 21 other groups and individuals (including Harrell) in a lawsuit to block the new victim-disarmament laws. The attorney leading the charge is Independence Institute research director Dave Kopel, who expects a years-long judicial struggle but is optimistic.
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    Ban and Confiscation have always been the end game and everyone knows that

    While I respect some of what Gottleib and SAF have done in the past I view everything he does/says with great skepticism after it became known that he was one of the authors of the Senate's most recent attempt at gun control
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    Ban and Confiscation have always been the end game and everyone knows that

    While I respect some of what Gottleib and SAF have done in the past I view everything he does/says with great skepticism after it became known that he was one of the authors of the Senate's most recent attempt at gun control

    Been discussed before ...

    It was a (successful) poison pill.
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    Been discussed before ...

    It was a (successful) poison pill.

    ********

    It wasn't a poison pill......Gottleib was trying in earnest to get the bill passed

    Listen to Gottleib himself



    Please listen to the whole thing......particularly the part from about 3:30 on

    Gottleib SUPPORTS background checks.
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    ********

    It wasn't a poison pill......Gottleib was trying in earnest to get the bill passed

    Listen to Gottleib himself



    Please listen to the whole thing......particularly the part from about 3:30 on

    Gottleib SUPPORTS background checks.


    Did Manchin/Toomey pass ?

    I understand where you're coming from, but Gottlieb wasn't advocating 'universal background checks' in the video.

    From the transcript:

    The initial background check bill that Schumer put in was horrible. There’s no way that any of us could support it. It was gun registrations, there’s no two ways about it, The Manchin-Toomey Bill despite some of my colleagues in the Gun Rights Movement talking about that it’s registration, it is not registration. Ahhh .. To be perfectly candid about it, it states in it that no guns can be registered. It also carries a section in it that any federal or any state or any gun dealer with access to the NICS Check Records who misuses those records for registration purposes commits a felony with a 15 year … up to a 15 year prison term. That’s really great protection for us.

    Right Now? Any gun sold through a dealer that goes through a background check: there is no protection. If someone were to misuse that list nothing happens to them. Now they will serve 15 years … up to 15 years in prison for misusing that list, if in fact they do so. That’s great protection. It’s the first time we’ve had protection. Other things in that bill which my sides not talking about? We’re not taling about it for a reason.

    If we talk about it too much, the other sie’s gonna find out about it and they’re gonna realize we’re gonna win off of this thing. The back ground check is not even a Universal Background Check. It’s at gun shows, commercial venues, or the internet. And, to be candid about it, it doesn’t cover family members, of any kind, or any friends, or any gun transaction, that’s not done at a gun show or basically on the internet. It gives protection, if you do go through the background check, you as an individual will now get both civil and criminal liability protection that you don’t have now. If somebody sold a gun to somebody who’s misused it, nobody can sue you even in a civil court for damages. That’s great protection that you don’t have right now.

    You focused on 3:30 and his 'inflamatory' statement regardling a potential criminal making a private purchase at a gun show. Again, I understand where you're coming from. But bottom line, having a NICS check at a gun show isn't universal background checks, and if included with the above penalty language would protect the gun seller from prosecution should the buyer be less than honest. And intentional or not, THAT was the 'poison pill' ... it wasn't a roll-over by one of the most devoted 2A advocates who for decades has fought for our rights.
     

    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    These states need to organise a DINO movement in the districts they need it. WE need to go full Alinsky on them. WE need to stay on them like we did with the SB281 Town Halls. WE need primary candidates and good opponents for the General Elections. Sadly my Liberty Tree efforts have only gotten 3-4 responses and no commitments down here.
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    Did Manchin/Toomey pass ?

    I understand where you're coming from, but Gottlieb wasn't advocating 'universal background checks' in the video.

    From the transcript:



    You focused on 3:30 and his 'inflamatory' statement regardling a potential criminal making a private purchase at a gun show. Again, I understand where you're coming from. But bottom line, having a NICS check at a gun show isn't universal background checks, and if included with the above penalty language would protect the gun seller from prosecution should the buyer be less than honest. And intentional or not, THAT was the 'poison pill' ... it wasn't a roll-over by one of the most devoted 2A advocates who for decades has fought for our rights.

    At 4:35 Gottleib admitted that he supports NICS checks.

    Its a freakin' miracle that this bill DIDN'T pass

    It was so chock full of ambiguous, non specific language that there would have been THOUSANDS of individuals who would find themselves on the recieving end of test cases by overzealous prosecutors and AG's

    This bill was a trainwreck and while I respect your ongoing support of RKBA you're starting to show cracks of being a battered maryland gun owner who thinks everyone in every other state should be forced to be subjected to bad legislation just because it might make things a little bit better for you in Md.
     
    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    Ban and Confiscation have always been the end game and everyone knows that

    Well, like John Dingleberry said, they have to "put legislation together to control the people".

    An armed people is less likely to tolerate being "controlled".
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    At 4:35 Gottleib admitted that he supports NICS checks.

    Its a freakin' miracle that this bill DIDN'T pass

    It was so chock full of ambiguous, non specific language that there would have been THOUSANDS of individuals who would find themselves on the recieving end of test cases by overzealous prosecutors and AG's

    This bill was a trainwreck and while I respect your ongoing support of RKBA you're starting to show cracks of being a battered maryland gun owner who thinks everyone in every other state should be forced to be subjected to bad legislation just because it might make things a little bit better for you in Md.

    Yada, yada, yada ...

    Just because you sashayed north to the 'Live Free or Die' state doesn't give you license to cast aspirsions on Marylander's who have chosen to stay and fight. And the last time I looked, NH acts as a partial point of contact (POC) for NICS checks, just like the PRofMD. So what's your beef AGAINST it, other than you'd rather NOT have to submit ... just like the rest of us.

    The REASON Manchin/Toomey failed is because their was enough 'yuck with the yummy' to make a thoroughly blue Senate to spit it out instead of swallowing it whole. So please, give me a break ...
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    Yada, yada, yada ...

    Just because you sashayed north to the 'Live Free or Die' state doesn't give you license to cast aspirsions on Marylander's who have chosen to stay and fight. And the last time I looked, NH acts as a partial point of contact (POC) for NICS checks, just like the PRofMD. So what's your beef AGAINST it, other than you'd rather NOT have to submit ... just like the rest of us.

    The REASON Manchin/Toomey failed is because their was enough 'yuck with the yummy' to make a thoroughly blue Senate to spit it out instead of swallowing it whole. So please, give me a break ...

    Well, I put my money where my mouth is and beat feet to a battleground state where my vote counts

    We're the ones that are pushing the envelope to pass legislation that actually protects your rights by raising the bar and demonstrating that states like Md/NJ/NY/Ill are embarrasments.

    Toomey-Manchin failed by the skin of the ass of an etheopian refugee with a vote of 54-46

    And for the record, Gottleib admits in plain english that he supports NICS.....he can make excuses for WHY but the simple fact of the matter remains that he supports further infringements at the federal level instead of pushing to get the fed OUT of RKBA and restrict it to its constitutional limits.

    Simple fact of the matter remains that crap legislation like S649 (Toomey-Manchin) only serves to help states that are complete failures like Md and in doing so directly harm states that have successfully protected RKBA.

    One size fits all legislation at the fed level on issues that the fed gooberment was never granted the power/authority to inserts itself into only does additional harm in both the short and long term.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    Guess what many support NICS. I will take NICS in exchange for a total ban on national registry of guns, or even a state registry on guns. I guarantee the court will not strike down criminal background checks, and real FOPA protection instead of a fig leaf, so you may as well get something for it.


    And the failed in the senate ..... it was still doa in house anyway. It failed so badly that the issue has been stalled for a long time.


    When you fight your allies as well as your enemies you lose.

    now flame away...
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    Guess what many support NICS. I will take NICS in exchange for a total ban on national registry of guns, or even a state registry on guns. I guarantee the court will not strike down criminal background checks, and real FOPA protection instead of a fig leaf, so you may as well get something for it.


    And the failed in the senate ..... it was still doa in house anyway. It failed so badly that the issue has been stalled for a long time.


    When you fight your allies as well as your enemies you lose.

    now flame away...

    Another battered Md gun owner who thinks that the rest of the country should have their good laws further undermined because its so bad in Md that ANYTHING would be better..........

    Yea, DOA in the house just like Amnasty is right?

    We've gone through the same problems with the NRA over the last couple decades that it appears we're going through with SAF and Gottleib......I respect the hell out of the guy and what he's done right up until this bill and his support for the expansion of NICS.....but its up to each of us to hold the NRA/SAF's feet to the fire and force them to do the RIGHT thing,

    Simply put you can't say you support constitutional government and then turn around and say you support NICS.

    If YOU can pick and choose which parts of the Constitution should be obeyed/ignored then who are you to criticize the other side when THEY do it?

    Its like saying that its ok when YOU lie but its not ok when someone else does.......
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,632
    AA county
    I wonder how many Californians fled to the "free" states Colorado and Washington?
     

    aquaman

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 21, 2008
    7,499
    Belcamp, MD
    Guess what many support NICS. I will take NICS in exchange for a total ban on national registry of guns, or even a state registry on guns. I guarantee the court will not strike down criminal background checks, and real FOPA protection instead of a fig leaf, so you may as well get something for it.


    And the failed in the senate ..... it was still doa in house anyway. It failed so badly that the issue has been stalled for a long time.


    When you fight your allies as well as your enemies you lose.

    now flame away...

    LOL

    What makes you think there isn't already a vast database of 4473's? Or a database of everyone who has been though a NICS check? You know what the NSA has been up to lately so don't say its a stretch. Manchin/Toomey would have provided momentum to the other side for 0 gain.
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    Another battered Md gun owner who thinks that the rest of the country should have their good laws further undermined because its so bad in Md that ANYTHING would be better..........

    Yea, DOA in the house just like Amnasty is right?

    We've gone through the same problems with the NRA over the last couple decades that it appears we're going through with SAF and Gottleib......I respect the hell out of the guy and what he's done right up until this bill and his support for the expansion of NICS.....but its up to each of us to hold the NRA/SAF's feet to the fire and force them to do the RIGHT thing,

    Simply put you can't say you support constitutional government and then turn around and say you support NICS.

    If YOU can pick and choose which parts of the Constitution should be obeyed/ignored then who are you to criticize the other side when THEY do it?

    Its like saying that its ok when YOU lie but its not ok when someone else does.......

    LOL ...

    So jpk1md, when will you be joining Adam Kokesh at 5:30 AM on the steps of The Captial Building, loading your 12g pump ?

    Sure, we Marylanders are suffering from battered gun owners syndrome, but we ARE pragmatists about it ...
     

    jpk1md

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 13, 2007
    11,313
    LOL ...

    So jpk1md, when will you be joining Adam Kokesh at 5:30 AM on the steps of The Captial Building, loading your 12g pump ?

    Sure, we Marylanders are suffering from battered gun owners syndrome, but we ARE pragmatists about it ...

    Ed, quite frankly I dont see how your response is relevant to what I posted

    jpk1md said:
    Another battered Md gun owner who thinks that the rest of the country should have their good laws further undermined because its so bad in Md that ANYTHING would be better..........

    Yea, DOA in the house just like Amnasty is right?

    We've gone through the same problems with the NRA over the last couple decades that it appears we're going through with SAF and Gottleib......I respect the hell out of the guy and what he's done right up until this bill and his support for the expansion of NICS.....but its up to each of us to hold the NRA/SAF's feet to the fire and force them to do the RIGHT thing,

    Simply put you can't say you support constitutional government and then turn around and say you support NICS.

    If YOU can pick and choose which parts of the Constitution should be obeyed/ignored then who are you to criticize the other side when THEY do it?

    Its like saying that its ok when YOU lie but its not ok when someone else does.......

    I know ultimately we're on the same team wrt RKBA but I cant for the life of me see how supporting an expansion of NICS and a plethora of other big gooberment unconstitutional regulations and over-reaches accomplishes that.

    BTW, If everyone here were pragmatic about the whole Kokesh thing then they would probably be taking steps to support the guys defense.......we hang together or we hang separately was never more true than it is today against a federal gooberment where more than 75% of laws on the books are not constitutional.....and that number is increasing.
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    ACORN Tactics Used Against Gun Rights

    The Wahsington State bill, I-594, sponsored by the Washington Alliance For Gun Responsibility, would require background checks for private firearms transfers.

     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    Thread revival ...

    At the risk of good nature'd argument from jpk1md, our NH-transplanted MDS'er ...

    Seattle (King County, WA) strikes again.
    Planned King County Gun Confiscations Foreshadow Larger, Wider Plans
    In many cases, we’ve seen restraining orders and firearm prohibitions based on considerably less than “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. It’s not like motives and incentives don’t exist, including revenge, or getting an upper hand in divorce settlements or custody proceedings. And in many cases, those unfairly caught up in such orders lack the wherewithal to defend the rights they’re being deprived of.
    The incrementalism built into Initiative 594 ushered in it's next phase.
    And the reason that’s a universal gun-grabber goal is because, as a National Institute of Justice “Summary of Select Firearm Violence Prevention Strategies” noted, “Effectiveness depends on the ability to reduce straw purchasing, requiring gun registration…”

    If they know who’s got ‘em, they know where to look.

    And the goal, of course is to go national, including with confiscation.
    Without due process ...
     

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    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    Connecting the dots ???

    The NYT goes for a Trump/NRA two-fer ...

    Operative Offered Trump Campaign ‘Kremlin Connection’ Using N.R.A. Ties

    Russia, he {campaign adviser, Rick Dearborn) wrote, was “quietly but actively seeking a dialogue with the U.S.” and would attempt to use the N.R.A.’s annual convention in Louisville, Ky., to make “ ‘first contact.’ ” The email, which was among a trove of campaign-related documents turned over to investigators on Capitol Hill, was described in detail to The New York Times.

    Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, the top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, penned letters to several Trump campaign foreign policy advisers last week asking for all documents related to the N.R.A., Mr. Erickson, Mr. Torshin, Mr. Clay, Mr. Dearborn and others.

    The N.R.A. was one of Mr. Trump’s biggest backers during the campaign, spending tens of millions of dollars to help elect him.
     

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