DL copied when buying gun

Redcobra · Jun 23, 2011

Kinbote said:
When you buy a gun under this MD law, is it a requirement for the FFL to make a copy of your driver's license? Or is it just something they do on their own?

My recent purchase: they asked to see it and copied some information but did not make a copy.

Kinbote · Jun 23, 2011

I don't have a problem with an FFL saying they want a copy of my DL for their own personal use to cover their ass, or for their general amusement, and I'm sure no gun store employee would ever misuse such information. I do have a problem with them just asking for it as if it is part of the rest of the stupid laws. As others attest, there are places in MD, and certainly in PA and WV and other states that do not do this. So those are the places I will buy guns from now on.

Some people enjoy providing all their information to others on facebook, or myspace, or having businesses make copies of their DL or birth certificate, that's fine for them.

canuck · Jun 23, 2011

Kinbote said:
I don't have a problem with an FFL saying they want a copy of my DL for their own personal use to cover their ass, or for their general amusement, and I'm sure no gun store employee would ever misuse such information. I do have a problem with them just asking for it as if it is part of the rest of the stupid laws. As others attest, there are places in MD, and certainly in PA and WV and other states that do not do this. So those are the places I will buy guns from now on.

Some people enjoy providing all their information to others on facebook, or myspace, or having businesses make copies of their DL or birth certificate, that's fine for them.

I'm just curious. What information does your DL contain that the 4473 doesn't? The ffl i regularly use has this internal policy. I really hadn't thought much about it.

Les Gawlik · Jun 23, 2011

In Wyoming, they copy the information for the physical address, the driver's license number and the expiration. If the DL has a PO box, the purchaser can provide a water bill, car registration, voter registration, current hunting or fishing license or tax document.

guthook · Jun 23, 2011

Dick's Sporting Goods in Waldorf photocopy your license.

pop-gunner · Jun 23, 2011

The 4473 asks on it in the portion the dealer fills out the type of identification given and the expiration date. It's a given that the drivers license will be given and that's just fine.
BUT, it has nothing to do with the OP's questions.
If I read the questions correctly they ask "When you buy a gun under this MD law, is it a requirement for the FFL to make a copy of your driver's license? Or is it just something they do on their own? "
To answer the questions...
1) No.
2)Yes.
A bunch of you fellas are getting all spun up over policies and procedures that businesses put in place without answering the questions asked.

pilotguy · Jun 23, 2011

Maryland law is pretty clear on this one--it is not legal to copy a driver's license.

§ 16-302. Duplication or reproduction of identification card or driver's license.
(a) General provisions.- A person may not duplicate or reproduce the following:
(1) Any identification card issued under this title by the Administration; or
(2) A driver's license issued under this title.

Jason21237 · Jun 24, 2011

That law doesnt say anything about making a photo copy. Its in reference to making fake id. A duplication or reproduction would be making another actual license. A piece of paper isnt a duplicate of a plastic drivers license.
Why is it even an issue that they copied your drivers license? It contains no info that you didnt already give when you fill out the paperwork to buy a gun in the first place. Its not like any of it is a secret. Something as simple as a phone number can easily produce your entire life story and family tree. Anyone that thinks any info is actually private is in fantasy land. Everything is available if you know how to get it.

pilotguy · Jun 24, 2011

16-302 is about duplicating as in making ANY copy of a license.

du·pli·cate/ˈd(y)o͞opləˌkāt/
Verb: Make or be an exact copy of.
Adjective: Exactly like something else, esp. through having been copied.

It even addresses faxed copies of state issued ID cards in sub section b.

I did not issue very many citations for photocopied licenses under 16-302 but all of them resulted in successful convictions. There is also a lot of case law about photocopied drivers licenses under 16-302.

StantonCree · Jun 24, 2011

I photocopy peoples ID's for their arrest packages all the time to show how they were identified. If you don't want it copied then dont buy a gun. I really don't see what the big deal is you gotta give your SSN anyway and thats the worst thing you can give out. I don't blame the FFL's for covering their rear there are a lot of people out there who are not responsible. Don't like it.....go get your own FFL.

K31 · Jun 24, 2011

mpdc4511 said:
I photocopy peoples ID's for their arrest packages all the time to show how they were identified. If you don't want it copied then dont buy a gun. I really don't see what the big deal is you gotta give your SSN anyway and thats the worst thing you can give out. I don't blame the FFL's for covering their rear there are a lot of people out there who are not responsible. Don't like it.....go get your own FFL.

You don't have to give your SSN for the instant check but I was told it can hold it up if you don't (I know some people don't and say they haven't been delayed). But yes, they have your address and DOB anyway and that's enough to get everything else.

StantonCree · Jun 24, 2011

with your name and address .........without using my sneaky police powers......I can easily get your phone number and depending on a couple of other factors, where you work, who you hang out with, what you are doing that day, who you are dating, DOB, and a whole host of other things you don't think a stranger should have. Now using sneaky police powers I will find out when you have been stopped by police, any tickets, any arrests, your SSN, you name it (not that I would ever use any of that crap for that it ain't worth my job).

Facebook and myspace catch more criminals than NCIC ever could.

K31 is right your name, address, and DOB is a hell of a thing these days.

Simms65 · Jun 24, 2011

At my shop we make a DL copy as we've been dinged by ATF compliance inspections for "illegible information" on forms. We stick a copy of the person's DL in the 4473 as a CYA move. We've yet to have someone get all bent out of shape as all the information and more is already on the form.

Jaybeez · Jun 24, 2011

I've never even able to get a tattoo without getting my DL copied.

My bank copied my driver's license.

Kinbote · Jun 24, 2011

mpdc4511

I photocopy peoples ID's for their arrest packages all the time to show how they were identified. If you don't want it copied then dont buy a gun.

So you compare buying a gun to processing a criminal? Certainly explains your attitude toward the topic. Not one I'd expect to see on a shooting forum, but maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. As far as the blasphemous diktat that I should not buy a gun, you missed the point made several times, by myself and others; there are FFL's that don't make copies of DL's. I'll just keep using them, thanks.

Pilotguy makes the point that::

"§ 16-302. Duplication or reproduction of identification card or driver's license.
(a) General provisions.- A person may not duplicate or reproduce the following:
(1) Any identification card issued under this title by the Administration; or
(2) A driver's license issued under this title.

So it seems that all the abject apologists for bureaucracy advocating people surrender to any and all capricious demands made by the state and business owners believe we should even break the law, or be party to breaking the law in order to comply with these decrees? That's another view it seems odd for someone implying he works in law enforcement to have. I'm shocked, shocked to find that subornation of criminal acts is going on in here.

Pilotguy, what is the proper authority to report violations of 16-302 to? Is the MSP in charge of enforcing that or is there some other records police or DMV in this state that prosecutes that crime? Is there any chance of a reward for reporting offenders?

I figure if I can't beat this slavish and cringing attitude toward authority I might as well join it. Perhaps I can curry favor with our bureaucratic overlords by informing on others. I know some of the people in this thread seem to appreciate the idea of individual liberty, but mpdc4511, you're with me on this, right, comrade?

Jettster · Jun 24, 2011

It is a Federal and State requirement to have an I9 form for all employees. You are required to have on hand a copy of all ID listed on the I9 form. Commonly it's a DL and a birth certificate. Failure to do so, if audited, constitutes huge fines.

Engage Armament · Jun 24, 2011

K31 said:
You don't have to give your SSN for the instant check but I was told it can hold it up if you don't (I know some people don't and say they haven't been delayed). But yes, they have your address and DOB anyway and that's enough to get everything else.

Actually the SS number is optional on the MSP forms as well. We have a lot of customers who refuse to put it down, and we simply write in "not provided". MSP does appear to accept that.

pilotguy · Jun 24, 2011

Kinbote said:
mpdc4511

So you compare buying a gun to processing a criminal? Certainly explains your attitude toward the topic. Not one I'd expect to see on a shooting forum, but maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. As far as the blasphemous diktat that I should not buy a gun, you missed the point made several times, by myself and others; there are FFL's that don't make copies of DL's. I'll just keep using them, thanks.

Pilotguy makes the point that::

"§ 16-302. Duplication or reproduction of identification card or driver's license.
(a) General provisions.- A person may not duplicate or reproduce the following:
(1) Any identification card issued under this title by the Administration; or
(2) A driver's license issued under this title.

So it seems that all the abject apologists for bureaucracy advocating people surrender to any and all capricious demands made by the state and business owners believe we should even break the law, or be party to breaking the law in order to comply with these decrees? That's another view it seems odd for someone implying he works in law enforcement to have. I'm shocked, shocked to find that subornation of criminal acts is going on in here.

Pilotguy, what is the proper authority to report violations of 16-302 to? Is the MSP in charge of enforcing that or is there some other records police or DMV in this state that prosecutes that crime? Is there any chance of a reward for reporting offenders?

I figure if I can't beat this slavish and cringing attitude toward authority I might as well join it. Perhaps I can curry favor with our bureaucratic overlords by informing on others. I know some of the people in this thread seem to appreciate the idea of individual liberty, but mpdc4511, you're with me on this, right, comrade?

Driver's licenses are covered under the Transportation Article, so it is a charge that can be issued using a Maryland State Citation (traffic citation) or anyone could simply charge it by going to the Commissioner's office and filling out a statement of charges against the person(s) copying the license. There is no exception for any sort of retail transaction and no exception for Governmental activity. As for the I-9 comment, please read the I-9 instructions for employers, as there is no requirement to copy documents. In fact it says "You may choose to copy or scan documents an employee presents when completing Form I-9, which you may, but are not required to, retain with his or her Form I-9."

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-274.pdf

It is a $140 fine but since it is a Transportation Article charge it carries points - actually it carries 12 points (i.e. immediate suspension of a person's driving privileges if they are licensed to drive.)

http://www.courts.state.md.us/district/forms/criminal/dccr090.pdf

16 302 (Duplication, Reproduction) of (identification card, driver's license)................... $ 140.00 12 12

Kinbote · Jun 24, 2011

Pilotguy, thank you very much for that information. When you say "going to the Commissioner's office" to fill out charges, who is the Commissioner? Is that the head of the MD DMV? So you could do it at the DMV or would you have to go to Annapolis?

Inigoes · Jun 24, 2011

Kinbote said:
Pilotguy, thank you very much for that information. When you say "going to the Commissioner's office" to fill out charges, who is the Commissioner? Is that the head of the MD DMV? So you could do it at the DMV or would you have to go to Annapolis?

The Commissioner is the person on duty with the sheriff's office when the court's are closed.

DL copied when buying gun

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