FAL in anything but 7.62: possibly exempt?

Cruacious · Jun 4, 2018

Partially inspired by the M1A in 6.5 creedmore thread below, I've been thinking lately about how narrow the ban laws are being interpretted by MSP. This got me thinking... What if...

Such as, what if you get an FAL made in anything but 7.62/.308? I'm 99% certain that it would not be a copycat or the weapon in question and thus be legal. More costly? Definitely. But it may be a good way to give a double-bird salute to the corrupt Annapolis cronies and a way for us in the Gulag who can't (or won't) leave to enjoy a classic weapons platform.

So then pundits, weigh in. And for the record, there has been made 2 FALs in 8mm Mauser as customs. There is precedence for caliber converted FALs.

IronEye · Jun 4, 2018

So let me see if I follow this:

from the ban list:
Springfield Armory BM–59, SAR–48, G3, SAR–3, M–21 sniper rifle, M1A, excluding the M1 Garand;

The Fulton Armory M65 6.5 Creedmoor has been declared to NOT be a Springfield M1A or a clone thereof so it is legal.

Also from the banned list:
FN LAR and FN FAL assault rifle;

So it would seem if you can get someone to market a "sort of FAL" but called it, say a F757, and chamber it in, say 7x57 Mauser, you should be good to go. I believe that consultations with MDSP and an agreement that this new rifle is not a FAL would be needed.

Doesn't really make any sense to me. So that's probably a sign that this is the correct interpretation of the Maryland law

IANAL.

danb · Jun 4, 2018

Sure, it would be just like an FN FAL, except with even more expensive magazines.

Cruacious · Jun 4, 2018

danb said:
Sure, it would be just like an FN FAL, except with even more expensive magazines.

Fair, but the point here is to try and make liberal heads explode just a little more.

benton0311 · Jun 4, 2018

Why not just an FAL in 6.5 Creedmoor since MSP says the M1A in 6.5 CM is good to go? Only change would be the barrel, everything else would be the same as .308.

I bet someone has already done it and all you’d need is the barrel. When inquiring with MSP just site the M1A in 6.5.

smdub · Jun 4, 2018

danb said:
Sure, it would be just like an FN FAL, except with even more expensive magazines.

LOL. That would be the SCAR

FAL mags aren't too bad. A 6.5CM would use the same ones. Hmm, or build a custom one in 45 Rapter

Pinecone · Jun 4, 2018

benton0311 said:
Why not just an FAL in 6.5 Creedmoor since MSP says the M1A in 6.5 CM is good to go? Only change would be the barrel, everything else would be the same as .308.

I bet someone has already done it and all you’d need is the barrel. When inquiring with MSP just site the M1A in 6.5.

They did not say an M1A in 6.5 was legal, they said the M65 in 6.5 was not a copy of the M1A, and therefore legal. Same as how the PolyTech M14 is not a copy of the M1A and therefore legal.

You would have to make a rifle that is not a copy of the FAL to be legal.

Caliber alone does not make it legal, as most entries in the list do not list a caliber.

MSP has been allowing AR-15s in other than 5.56, but I don't think the law really allows that.

erwos · Jun 4, 2018

danb said:
Sure, it would be just like an FN FAL, except with even more expensive magazines.

Alas, you're not wrong. I love my pre-ban FAL, but it's got nothing on my AR-308.

If you're dead-set on a FAL, just buy a DSA FAL pistol and maybe SBR it. Should easily make OAL, and to be honest, an 8.25" para FAL SBR sounds like basically the most sexy gun ever.

One other alternative is the SAR-4800 in 5.56x45. I don't believe the SAR-48 was ever imported in that caliber. Spare parts situation is super-dire, though.

danb · Jun 4, 2018

Pinecone said:
MSP has been allowing AR-15s in other than 5.56, but I don't think the law really allows that.

The statute says "Colt AR-15 except Sporter HBAR" this is the bit that bans AR-15s.

The Colt AR 15 was never made in 300 blk. Or 6.5 Creedmoor. Or 9mm. The 308 verson is not an AR-15 either. AR-15 is only 556.

You have a got a bad case of battered gun owner syndrome. The good news, the cure is just a new rifle away.

HappyCamper · Jun 4, 2018

I researched alternate caliber FALs a few years back.. don't have the links anymore, but I remember seeing prototypes and modded guns in 8MM Mauser, .280 and 7.62x39 amongst a few others, but nothing what you would call a production gun. The 8MM build was friggin coolio though. Also there was some pistol caliber ones too but in the end, I didn't go down the FAL rabbit hole.

dontpanic · Jun 4, 2018

danb said:
The statute says "Colt AR-15 except Sporter HBAR" this is the bit that bans AR-15s.

The Colt AR 15 was never made in 300 blk. Or 6.5 Creedmoor. Or 9mm. The 308 verson is not an AR-15 either. AR-15 is only 556.

You have a got a bad case of battered gun owner syndrome. The good news, the cure is just a new rifle away.

The Colt AR-15 was made in 9mm and 7.62 x 39. But neither of them is banned. It really shows how random the ban truly is.

Pinecone · Jun 5, 2018

danb said:
The statute says "Colt AR-15 except Sporter HBAR" this is the bit that bans AR-15s.

The Colt AR 15 was never made in 300 blk. Or 6.5 Creedmoor. Or 9mm. The 308 verson is not an AR-15 either. AR-15 is only 556.

You have a got a bad case of battered gun owner syndrome. The good news, the cure is just a new rifle away.

Statute also bans COPIES.

And, some firearms listed DO have caliber listed.

And also, if they can ban a Bushmaster AR-15 based on being a named firearm, any AR-15 is banned.

danb · Jun 5, 2018

dontpanic said:
The Colt AR-15 was made in 9mm and 7.62 x 39. But neither of them is banned. It really shows how random the ban truly is.

IIRC Colt 9mm was the Colt SMG in the 90s. Keep in mind this list, and the names, are from the 90s. Also, the 9mm AR is blowback operated, not direct gas impingement.

7.62x39 Colt AR was made in in the 90s? what mags did it take?

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jun 5, 2018

dontpanic said:
The Colt AR-15 was made in 9mm and 7.62 x 39. But neither of them is banned. It really shows how random the ban truly is.

It shows how stupid so many of our legislators are...and while you want to slap them upside their faces for such stupidity, you have to consider how much worse it could be by smartening them up.

benton0311 · Jun 5, 2018

AR15s with a full profile barrel (aka HBAR) are also not banned. AKs in .223 are legit as are the M1A/M14 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Since MSP has declared that the M1A/M14 in 6.5 CM is good to go, the same justification would likely be applied to the FAL.

I'm not sure if the slight difference in OAL with 6.5 Creedmoor would be an issue in FAL mags or not but is fine for the AR10 and M14 based rifles. If not, .243 Winchester would be a round that would be "drop in" for an FAL and should require nothing but a different barrel. Same bolt, same mags, and the gas block is already adjustable. Just need a .243 (or possibly 6.5 CM) barrel. You can buy both rounds at Walmart and both are in the same price range as .308 for premium ammo, you just can't get bulk surplus M80 ball for plinking.

Edit: In .243, you'd also be approximating the type of intermediate cartridge that the FAL was originally intended for before the U.S. crammed the 7.62x51 down NATO's throat and then realized a few years later that NATO was right all along.

dontpanic · Jun 5, 2018

danb said:
IIRC Colt 9mm was the Colt SMG in the 90s. Keep in mind this list, and the names, are from the 90s. Also, the 9mm AR is blowback operated, not direct gas impingement.

7.62x39 Colt AR was made in in the 90s? what mags did it take?

Colt made sporter 9mm carbines in the 80s and 90s. The 7.62 ARs used Colt 7.62 mags.

The 9mm was marked AR 15 9mm. The 7.62 was marked Sporter lightweight 7.62 x 39

danb · Jun 5, 2018

dontpanic said:
Colt made sporter 9mm carbines in the 80s and 90s. The 7.62 ARs used Colt 7.62 mags.

The 9mm was marked AR 15 9mm. The 7.62 was marked Sporter lightweight 7.62 x 39

Abacab · Jun 8, 2018

benton0311 said:
AR15s with a full profile barrel (aka HBAR) are also not banned. AKs in .223 are legit as are the M1A/M14 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Since MSP has declared that the M1A/M14 in 6.5 CM is good to go, the same justification would likely be applied to the FAL.

I'm not sure if the slight difference in OAL with 6.5 Creedmoor would be an issue in FAL mags or not but is fine for the AR10 and M14 based rifles. If not, .243 Winchester would be a round that would be "drop in" for an FAL and should require nothing but a different barrel. Same bolt, same mags, and the gas block is already adjustable. Just need a .243 (or possibly 6.5 CM) barrel. You can buy both rounds at Walmart and both are in the same price range as .308 for premium ammo, you just can't get bulk surplus M80 ball for plinking.

Edit: In .243, you'd also be approximating the type of intermediate cartridge that the FAL was originally intended for before the U.S. crammed the 7.62x51 down NATO's throat and then realized a few years later that NATO was right all along.

Wait did someone write a letter about the Chinese AKs in .223 or is this just a logical extension of the AK-74 and AR-15 not in .223 status?

benton0311 · Jun 8, 2018

Abacab said:
Wait did someone write a letter about the Chinese AKs in .223 or is this just a logical extension of the AK-74 and AR-15 not in .223 status?

Logical extension since there are other .223 AKs such as the Yugo M90P that are good to go. Actually, just looked it up, the Norinco 84s in .223 is "Not Banned" per MSP. Cert date of 2/28/18. So you can see this is the (very beneficial) logic they're using: different caliber = different rifle.

FN-FAL models in .308/7.62x51 are banned. Change the caliber and it's a different rifle.

The Polytech M14 is somehow not banned, presumably because the law specifically states "Springfield Armory" and the Polytech has a few minute differences from the M1A. The Fulton Armory M65, for example, is also good to go.

So here's an idea: How about an L1A1? Inch pattern so it technically uses different magazines than the FAL. You can always submit and note all of the differences between the L1A1 and FAL and see what they say. Might be good to go. If not, back to doing a 6.5 or .243 FAL which would almost certainly be good to go. DISREGARD, I now see the L1A1 is not kosher per MSP. Might be disputable though and possible to ask for a new decision since they are technically different than the FAL (e.g. the magazines, some internal parts) but they're close enough that they might not even consider it. In any case, a different caliber FAL should be good to go based on all of their other decisions since 2013

danb · Jun 8, 2018

benton0311 said:
So here's an idea: How about an L1A1? Inch pattern so it technically uses different magazines than the FAL. You can always submit and note all of the differences between the L1A1 and FAL and see what they say. Might be good to go. If not, back to doing a 6.5 or .243 FAL which would almost certainly be good to go. DISREGARD, I now see the L1A1 is not kosher per MSP. Might be disputable though and possible to ask for a new decision since they are technically different than the FAL (e.g. the magazines, some internal parts) but they're close enough that they might not even consider it. In any case, a different caliber FAL should be good to go based on all of their other decisions since 2013

right, Century Arms L1A1: banned. 4/10/2017. The trouble with asking MDSP to opine on legality is that its only an opinion ("guidance") which they have somewhat disavowed. They do not actually have armorers inspect rifles and samples. They use Google-fu and one finger in the air. If the Century Arms L1A1 does not take FAL mags, this is not interchangeable with an FAL. OTOH, what constitutes an "FAL" is based on 1990s lore.

DSA Arms RPD is listed (not banned) but their other rifles like the SA58 are not. They claim that they have made lots of "improvements." OTOH, their flyer says that they take metric mags, so I am thinking at first blush no bueno.

I have to say, I am honestly not sure why people want an FAL so badly. M1A I get, its a classic. FAL though, seems like there are lots of better and less expensive options out there.

FAL in anything but 7.62: possibly exempt?

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