HB910/SB958 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms

Kicken Wing · Feb 6, 2020

I just read the text of both bills (identical). I plan on being in Annapolis on 2/26 as well as 3/3. Exempting pre-68 firearms to an extent as noted by someone else. They are still planning on banning/manufacture of 3d printed guns and 80 percents whether they are complete or still in the 80 percent form. Then of course we have a special category of guns that are being banned... "covert firearm" which includes a keychain, a pen, a cigarette lighter, a cigarette package, a cellphone, a wallet, or a cane. Totally unenforceable. Same dipsh!ts, slightly different bill, different year.

Kicken Wing · Feb 6, 2020

Allen65 said:
Better chance of a rational argument actually being listened to in Senate, based on what I saw yesterday at the SB0208 hearing. Wasting my breath in House unless I'm just looking to vent.

That's how I feel too but I am not sitting back and saying nothing in the House. I am fighting it in both places.

Nickberg500 · Feb 6, 2020

Does anyone know if this affects 80%s that are made before the bill goes into effect? If not how do they propose compliance, swapping the lower with a factory one? Getting a serial number from a manufacturer? Sounds like a can of worms.

MJD438 · Feb 6, 2020

Nickberg500 said:
Does anyone know if this affects 80%s that are made before the bill goes into effect? If not how do they propose compliance, swapping the lower with a factory one? Getting a serial number from a manufacturer? Sounds like a can of worms.

There is no grandfather date, so possession of a home built firearm after the effective date is a crime. Maryland Democrats love to propose bills and simply say "get rid of it before the law goes into effect... you are law abiding after all... prove it..."

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

PowPow · Feb 6, 2020

Allen65 said:
Gotta think how to attack this bill in testimony besides the "nobody will comply, so why pass the bill" angle.

My argument on this last year was that this bill boils down to the government compelling the citizens to deface their private property. Something I build is a free speech expression, if I want it to look a particular way. If the government compels me to place a serial number on it, they have taken away my protected first amendment speech. They have interfered with my free speech. A home made firearm, e.g. 1911, is no different than a painting or piece of furniture.

How would the aspiring artists on the committee feel if their government required them to splash "Trump 2020" over their freshly painted by their own hands portraits of AOC?

6-Pack · Feb 6, 2020

They are also depriving you of your property without compensation if there’s no grandfather clause.

teratos · Feb 6, 2020

6-Pack said:
They are also depriving you of your property without compensation if there’s no grandfather clause.

I may or may not have tens of thousands of dollars in 80 percent firearms.

Doctor_M · Feb 6, 2020

WeaponsCollector said:
They can suck my Glock.

But only 80% of it :lol2:

Doctor_M · Feb 6, 2020

teratos said:
I’m not planning on complying so much.

Thanks MD... I don't need to build my own gun... I don't even particularly want to build my own gun... but now that you are telling me that I can't build my own gun; I pretty much have to build my own gun. And so it shall be.

teratos · Feb 6, 2020

Doctor_M said:
Thanks MD... I don't need to build my own gun... I don't even particularly want to build my own gun... but now that you are telling me that I can't build my own gun; I pretty much have to build my own gun. And so it shall be.

I have all the Matrix Precision 1911 jigs, plus the Marvell hammer/sear jig. If you want to do a 1911/2011, we can arrange a time for access to the jigs.

lazarus · Feb 6, 2020

PowPow said:
My argument on this last year was that this bill boils down to the government compelling the citizens to deface their private property. Something I build is a free speech expression, if I want it to look a particular way. If the government compels me to place a serial number on it, they have taken away my protected first amendment speech. They have interfered with my free speech. A home made firearm, e.g. 1911, is no different than a painting or piece of furniture.

How would the aspiring artists on the committee feel if their government required them to splash "Trump 2020" over their freshly painted by their own hands portraits of AOC?

They aren’t compelling you to serialize it. They are compelling you to turn it in, destroy it or remove it from the state. It is a taking. Without compensation.

That’s another can of worms for them. And it isn’t as simple as bumpstock. They are specifically taking a firearm. That run directly in contravention of the second amendment and the Maryland takings clause.

Doctor_M · Feb 6, 2020

teratos said:
I have all the Matrix Precision 1911 jigs, plus the Marvell hammer/sear jig. If you want to do a 1911/2011, we can arrange a time for access to the jigs.

Appreciate the offer, my friend. I may take you up on that!

Stoveman · Feb 6, 2020

Doctor_M said:
Thanks MD... I don't need to build my own gun... I don't even particularly want to build my own gun... but now that you are telling me that I can't build my own gun; I pretty much have to build my own gun. And so it shall be.

So much I have for exactly this reason.

Why? BECAUSE **** YOU!!

PowPow · Feb 6, 2020

6-Pack said:
They are also depriving you of your property without compensation if there’s no grandfather clause.

But they'll say, all you need to do is put a serial number on it. Nobody will take it from you or force you to relocate it. That's where my argument takes over.

They cannot compel me to deface my "art". They cannot force me to relocate my "art". My "art" in whatever form is my free speech. If I build a kick ass 1911, or I do a custom stipple on a Polymer80, that's art. It's no different than a painting.

PowPow · Feb 6, 2020

lazarus said:
They aren’t compelling you to serialize it. They are compelling you to turn it in, destroy it or remove it from the state. It is a taking. Without compensation.

That’s another can of worms for them. And it isn’t as simple as bumpstock. They are specifically taking a firearm. That run directly in contravention of the second amendment and the Maryland takings clause.

They cannot compel me to turn in, relocate, or destroy my free speech.

A home made firearm is art. If I made it, it's my free speech. They cannot compel us to deface our free speech with serial numbers. It is no different than the government telling you that you must paint a hammer and sickle in the top right corner of your paintings before they may be hung on the walls inside your house.

This is not the same as bumpstocks. We didn't have a first amendment claim on those that I am aware of, but we do with home made firearms.

Allen65 · Feb 6, 2020

PowPow said:
But they'll say, all you need to do is put a serial number on it. Nobody will take it from you or force you to relocate it. That's where my argument takes over.

If it was you who had to put the serial number on it, your argument might come into play. But the serial needs to be issued by an FFL as per the bill's text. And when I did a survey of a few manufacturers last year when this issue came up, none was willing to issue a # for a home built. It appears to be some ATF reg; a FFL can't issue a serial for something they didn't manufacture. So the bill as written cannot be complied with for adding a serial # to a home built receiver/firearm. All you can do is not possess the home built firearm in the first place

Mike OTDP · Feb 7, 2020

One strong argument is that people buy 80% receivers because the legislators keep talking ban, ban, ban. Nobody spends good money on them for fun. And I'd bet good odds that an awful lot of folks have a few 80% kits squirreled away, just on general principles.

6-Pack · Feb 7, 2020

PowPow said:
But they'll say, all you need to do is put a serial number on it. Nobody will take it from you or force you to relocate it. That's where my argument takes over.

They cannot compel me to deface my "art". They cannot force me to relocate my "art". My "art" in whatever form is my free speech. If I build a kick ass 1911, or I do a custom stipple on a Polymer80, that's art. It's no different than a painting.

As the bill is currently written, only a licensed manufacturer can put a serial number on it - you cannot put a serial on your own gun

erwos · Feb 7, 2020

Same problems as last time, plus a "real AOW" and an "undetectable firearm" ban for no obvious reason (except to maybe make the rest of the bill pass?). No grandfathering, and still basically bans all home gun manufacture of any kind. You could, in theory, save your current non-3D-printed stuff by taking it to a SOT to have them engrave a serial (which, ironically, the state will still know nothing about). Does seem to ban 80% kits without a serial. A clever SOT in this state could, in theory, just buy the kits, engrave serials on them, NOT RECORD THEM, and then sell the kits completely legally. Putting a serial number on it doesn't make traceable, guys. IIRC, the ATF only knows about serials because of the books, and 80%s are not in the books!

There's a lot wrong with this bill. If the state insisted they wanted to know about all home gun manufacture, they could easily have people apply for a serial from the MSP LD portal, which would infringe on everyone's freedom much less.

Allen65 · Feb 7, 2020

erwos said:
You could, in theory, save your current non-3D-printed stuff by taking it to a SOT to have them engrave a serial (which, ironically, the state will still know nothing about). Does seem to ban 80% kits without a serial. A clever SOT in this state could, in theory, just buy the kits, engrave serials on them, NOT RECORD THEM, and then sell the kits completely legally.

Except that FFLs, SOT or otherwise, can't do that under current ATF regs according to multiple FFL manufacturers I spoke with last year.

The bill's language was almost certainly crafted with knowledge that no homebuilt firearm could comply under current Federal law and ATF regs.

HB910/SB958 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms

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