Attacker without a gun

K31 · Oct 24, 2014

He had a knife.

K31 · Oct 24, 2014

Name Taken said:
Oh here we go.

Your lawyer is the only person you should take legal advice from.

That's just crazy talk.

I suppose you'd go to some fancy Dermatologist to see if that mole on your neck was cancer rather than relying on the collective wisdom of the group.

Mooseman · Oct 24, 2014

OP, did you have a chance to frisk this intruder? Is he naked? How do you know he does not have a weapon? Just because you don't see a weapon does not mean that he does not have one.

Dal1as · Oct 24, 2014

I'd just stand there while my 90 plus pound GSD had a snack.

Seriously though. No one is truly unarmed especially if you have brought a firearm into the equation that could be used against you.

Dogabutila · Oct 24, 2014

Mr Bear said:
Just curious, but with your vision issues, have you had any training in or practiced intuitive shooting (sometimes called point shooting)?

Not any formal. I've done a lot of it in FoF.

GrimReaper · Oct 24, 2014

Shoot, shovel and shut-up

Chris · Oct 24, 2014

Now let's see, I live quite a bit off the main road plus there are a bunch of houses before mine so it's safe to say the person (s) breaking down my door are on a mission. If he/she/them get past the dogs they then have two trained people to deal with. I think we can deal with the problem. Chris

esqappellate · Oct 24, 2014

Elm79 said:
I've pretty new to all this. I've taken NRA pistol but not the home self defense class. I will ask this question when I take that class. But I wanted to see your opinions....

Hypothetical: man kicks in my MD front door. Family and I are upstairs. Man marches upstairs with no weapons. Just a big dude who is pissed off and wants to kick my ass, for some reason. It seems to me from reading the law that I could only respond with my knuckles otherwise that would be unreasonable and excessive. I could not shoot him.

If someone kicked in the door my first thought would be to grab my gun. Then I would see this man charging me, see he has no weapon, then if guess Im supposed to toss my gun to the side and start a good fist fight?! Seems idiotic.

I'm not asking for legal advice just a discussion. In that flash of a moment what would you do? Clearly if he is armed he would be shot. But unarmed I'd be contemplating what to do with my gun, to avoid spending my life in jail. If he takes it from me he could kill me, however.

E

I don't give legal advice in the forma. So you need to consult with your lawyer. But, this is only what I am trained to do in that hypothetical situation:

If this hypothetical person breaks down my locked door (and my front door is always locked) and he is a big dude, and is a complete stranger to me, I (being a reasonable person) would reasonably think that he is in my home to commit a violate felony upon me and/or my family, and that I am (or members of my family are) in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm from that person who has just committed a violent intrusion into the sanctity of my home. (NOTE: This assumes that the intruder is NOT my neighbor who wandered in in search of me or my neighbor's kid or some poor lost soul who is merely standing at the front door asking for directions). In accordance with the PPITH course (which I have taken and help teach, both on the range and the legal section), I (1) call (or have someone call) 911 (and put it on speaker), (2) arm myself, (3) take cover. I then tell said person (loudly in a command voice) that 1. the police have been called and are on their way and 2. that I am armed and 3. if he doesn't leave immediately, I will shoot him until such time he no longer poses a threat to me or my family. That's all assuming that I have time for all that. If the bad guy has any sense, he runs like Hell. Which is all good.

If he leaves, I let him go, and do not follow. If he presses his attack, I defend myself on the basis of my reasonable belief that I and my family are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (especially likely now that I have told him that I will shoot him if he proceeds). Because I have spent a lot of good quality time on the range and because I am well prepared mentally, with lots of training (Basic Pistol, PPITH, PPOTH and hardest of all, NRA Defensive Pistol, and as an Instructor), I am successful and the threat to my life and to the lives of my family is terminated.

Then I do other things (like stay behind cover and scan the area and be on ready in case there are other bad guys, do a tactical reload, wait for the police and, when they come, make damn sure I don't have a gun in my hand). Then I CALL MY LAWYER WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO, because I now really, really need him.

When the police come, (before the lawyer gets there), my statement is quite limited: Officer, the intruder (who is dead on the floor with multiple hollow point rounds through center mass) violently broke into my house through that door over there (pointing to splintered door), I felt that my life and my family's lives were in imminent danger. Intruder's weapon is there (if he has one). My family is over there. Witnesses to this event are x and y and are located here and there. Now, I would like to cooperate with you further, but I respectfully decline to answer any of your questions or make a further statement until such time that I have had an opportunity to consult with legal counsel (invocation of the right to counsel under the Sixth Amendment at which time questioning must stop).

AND THEN I SHUT UP. If they arrest me, fine, I stay silent and do not ask any questions (which waives my 6th amendment right that I just invoked by reinitiating the interrogation) and stay calm (as much as I can) and wait patiently for my lawyer. If I am asked questions, I repeat my request for counsel and nothing else (learn by rote). If I do all that, I have set the predicate for a successful self defense affirmative defense to a homicide charge (I just killed someone so that is a homicide), legally protected myself as an innocent person by invoking my right to counsel and staying silent, and done what I can to preserve the evidence and the scene for that defense.

Docster · Oct 24, 2014

Name Taken said:
Oh here we go.

Your lawyer is the only person you should take legal advice from.

You ask a legal question and then state you aren't looking for legal advice...it doesn't work that way.

There are endless variables to your question making it very hard to answer. There is never "blanket statements" that cover everything in the court of law.

Good luck. I'll sit back and read a lot of wrong and misguided posts from here on out.

^^^THIS, please. As well, there are many threads about this already. A little searching would find them for you.

Straightshooter · Oct 24, 2014

And this is why I really, really like you.

gamer_jim · Oct 24, 2014

The phrase you need to remember:

"He said he was going to kill me, I was in fear for my life".

gamer_jim · Oct 24, 2014

Or just invite him in... Then make him rub the lotion on.

Blaster229 · Oct 24, 2014

I am not getting into a fist fight with someone inside my home. He beats my ass and then what? He leaves?
I know what I am doing. I would hope without any instruction anyone could figure this one out.

Lou45 · Oct 25, 2014

I'm late to this party but anyone that knows me, knows my answer.

Elm79 · Oct 26, 2014

esqappellate said:
I don't give legal advice in the forma. So you need to consult with your lawyer. But, this is only what I am trained to do in that hypothetical situation:

If this hypothetical person breaks down my locked door (and my front door is always locked) and he is a big dude, and is a complete stranger to me, I (being a reasonable person) would reasonably think that he is in my home to commit a violate felony upon me and/or my family, and that I am (or members of my family are) in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm from that person who has just committed a violent intrusion into the sanctity of my home. (NOTE: This assumes that the intruder is NOT my neighbor who wandered in in search of me or my neighbor's kid or some poor lost soul who is merely standing at the front door asking for directions). In accordance with the PPITH course (which I have taken and help teach, both on the range and the legal section), I (1) call (or have someone call) 911 (and put it on speaker), (2) arm myself, (3) take cover. I then tell said person (loudly in a command voice) that 1. the police have been called and are on their way and 2. that I am armed and 3. if he doesn't leave immediately, I will shoot him until such time he no longer poses a threat to me or my family. That's all assuming that I have time for all that. If the bad guy has any sense, he runs like Hell. Which is all good.

If he leaves, I let him go, and do not follow. If he presses his attack, I defend myself on the basis of my reasonable belief that I and my family are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (especially likely now that I have told him that I will shoot him if he proceeds). Because I have spent a lot of good quality time on the range and because I am well prepared mentally, with lots of training (Basic Pistol, PPITH, PPOTH and hardest of all, NRA Defensive Pistol, and as an Instructor), I am successful and the threat to my life and to the lives of my family is terminated.

Then I do other things (like stay behind cover and scan the area and be on ready in case there are other bad guys, do a tactical reload, wait for the police and, when they come, make damn sure I don't have a gun in my hand). Then I CALL MY LAWYER WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO, because I now really, really need him.

When the police come, (before the lawyer gets there), my statement is quite limited: Officer, the intruder (who is dead on the floor with multiple hollow point rounds through center mass) violently broke into my house through that door over there (pointing to splintered door), I felt that my life and my family's lives were in imminent danger. Intruder's weapon is there (if he has one). My family is over there. Witnesses to this event are x and y and are located here and there. Now, I would like to cooperate with you further, but I respectfully decline to answer any of your questions or make a further statement until such time that I have had an opportunity to consult with legal counsel (invocation of the right to counsel under the Sixth Amendment at which time questioning must stop).

AND THEN I SHUT UP. If they arrest me, fine, I stay silent and do not ask any questions (which waives my 6th amendment right that I just invoked by reinitiating the interrogation) and stay calm (as much as I can) and wait patiently for my lawyer. If I am asked questions, I repeat my request for counsel and nothing else (learn by rote). If I do all that, I have set the predicate for a successful self defense affirmative defense to a homicide charge (I just killed someone so that is a homicide), legally protected myself as an innocent person by invoking my right to counsel and staying silent, and done what I can to preserve the evidence and the scene for that defense.

Great reply. Thank you!

Blaster229 · Oct 26, 2014

Elm79 said:
I've pretty new to all this. I've taken NRA pistol but not the home self defense class. I will ask this question when I take that class. But I wanted to see your opinions....

Hypothetical: man kicks in my MD front door. Family and I are upstairs. Man marches upstairs with no weapons. Just a big dude who is pissed off and wants to kick my ass, for some reason. It seems to me from reading the law that I could only respond with my knuckles otherwise that would be unreasonable and excessive. I could not shoot him.

If someone kicked in the door my first thought would be to grab my gun. Then I would see this man charging me, see he has no weapon, then if guess Im supposed to toss my gun to the side and start a good fist fight?! Seems idiotic.

I'm not asking for legal advice just a discussion. In that flash of a moment what would you do? Clearly if he is armed he would be shot. But unarmed I'd be contemplating what to do with my gun, to avoid spending my life in jail. If he takes it from me he could kill me, however.

E

This hypothetical is pretty specific. So let's go with your scenario.

It's fine with everything else everyone said about THEIR scenarios. Nobody answered THIS scenario where the guys is already upstairs (before you could get cover and do all the preemptive things some have mentioned) attacking you and you have your pistol in your hand.
How well trained are you in retaining a weapon while in a grappling/fist fight with someone bigger than you? Are you REALLY going to toss your weapon to the side and try to box with this guy in order to defend yourself AND family INSIDE your home? Will you win? Probably not.

This scenario you mention is when someone has already gotten the jump on you and it is too late for anything but self defense reaction. Someone downstairs and you are upstairs or down a hallway with a little distance and time, you can do some things such as take cover, etc... to show that you tried as much as you could do before using deadly force.

Remember, distance and proximity of the threat to you is what allows you time to do all you can to form a "case of self defense". If there is close distance and close proximity one has no choice but to actually pull a trigger and defend their self and family. Unless you truly aren't afraid for your life then maybe you have other choices.

traveller · Oct 26, 2014

If he is 'Just a big dude who is pissed off and wants to kick my ass, for some reason.' you have reason to believe that he is about to commit a felony in your home. MD court of appeals has dealt with this in Crawford where the renter knew the thugs were coming to rob him of his disability check.

Do what you have to do to protect yourself. Dont shoot the neighbors daughter delivering girl-scout cookies or the meter reader and you should be ok.

(Not legal advice and may not apply in Anne Arundel county)

TheRussianNightmare · Oct 28, 2014

K31 said:
He had a knife.

...and dead men tell no tales.

molonlabe · Oct 28, 2014

The NRA legal section of the Personal protection course has to be given by an attorney or a LEO. That being said this is a good question to bring up in the class,. Any use of a firearm resulting in death can be a life altering experience for people especially in MD. esqappellate reply is excellent and reasonable.

Blaster229 · Oct 28, 2014

molonlabe said:
The NRA legal section of the Personal protection course has to be given by an attorney or a LEO. That being said this is a good question to bring up in the class,. Any use of a firearm resulting in death can be a life altering experience for people especially in MD. esqappellate reply is excellent and reasonable.

His reply is excellent for the scenario he presented in his comment.
I guess I'm wrong thinking that the attacker was already upon the op in what he described.

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