If you can find one labeled as an SAR-4800, it should be good to go. If it's an SAR-48, it's banned by name. They pop up on GB once in a while.
Someone else also made some 5.56 builds, but I don't know if they're any good.
FAL variant legal in MD?
- Thread starter Sam Salvati
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Someone else also made some 5.56 builds, but I don't know if they're any good.
Red Rock Arm's ATR:
http://www.redrockarms.com/atr.html
Aluminium receivers that are not very durable. They did not make very many
If you can come up with a magazine adapter or dedicated receiver, 223 FAL kits are out there:
https://arizonaresponsesystems.com/product/fal-atr-223-kit/
Roller delayed are still sensitive to barrel length. They are tuned by the angles on the locking piece. For example: G3 uses a 45deg lock. G3K uses 50deg. HK51 uses ~58deg.
https://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:guide-to-hk-locking-pieces
Even generic M80 ball is 1900fpe out of a 12" barrel. Well beyond 300blk. A load tuned to a short barrel would yield even more.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/30...-length-and-velocity-a-six-inch-308-bolt-gun/
Off the shelf 7.62x51 is cheaper than 300blk (by a long shot if using steel case!) Ammoseek shows cheapest new 300blk at $0.45/rd (Armscor). Steel x51 (Tula) is $0.28/rd. Brass non-surplus x51 (Magtech) is $0.41. Surplus brass x51 is even cheaper. Can even shoot the blue plastic training ammo out of an HK for <$0.20/rd.
If handloading you can choose fast burning / low flash powder combos in x51 cases same as 300blk to minimize the muzzle flash.
x51 has several advantages. True its slightly larger action, less ammo capacity in a mag, and big flash w/ factory loads (not always a disadvantage as a range toy.) "No advantages" isn't honest.
Anyone know if the 8" PTR-91 SBRs will make OAL with a standard fixed stock? I've always had a fantasy of running an 8" 308 for lolz.
Should make it. I can confirm tonight.
danb
dont be a dumbass
fair enough. steel is cheap and if you can handload a fast burning powder, you can work up something that would be as good or better than 300blk with no fireball.
I can't imagine an 8" 308! I put a few magazines through my SOCOM 16 and watched the guys to my left and right move further away, one said it made his face hurt?! Jarred my teeth a bit but shooting under cover amplifies the shockwave-all kinds of stuff was falling on the benches from the boom. Wouldn't have it any other way though, I do love a good loud boomstick!
Yup, I said that:
"Using the correct locking piece for the caliber and barrel length functions to provide the correct amount of gas"
Unlike the shorty FAL and M14 clones, all that changes is the locking piece, which can be purchased specific to the barrel ength and caliber being used.
Overall, the roller locked system has proven much more reliable over a variety of barrel lengths and calibers.
There are not reliable and short barrel versions of the M14 or FAL. SA got the M14 down to 16" but they had a lot of issues for a while. I personally wouldnt trust a FAL or M14 clone shorter than 18". I would trust my 8" PTR pistol any day. The 4" in 7.62x51 is not practical.
Roller locked designs are factory available in 5.56, 9mm, 7.62x39 and if you want to go custom, 10mm, 7.62×25, 5.45x39, 300 Blk; and in barrel lengths from 4" out to 20". In many cases the same Locking Piece works for a range of barrel lengths.
Essentially all that changes is 1 part. No adjustments, tweaking, ammo sensitivity, etc.
On the other hand, the FAL and M14 need to be adjusted for timing, port size, specific ammunition, etc. Adjustable gas settings on the FAL or using a Schuster gas plug on the M14 clones may help, but its not anywhere near as close to Plug and Chug the Locking Piece on the Roller Locked system.
Steve_Zissou
Ultimate Member
This. .300blk and x39 are great rounds, for sure, but their boosters are deluding themselves if they think that either of them will ever be able to scratch what a full-power cartridge like 308 can do in any barrel length over 9". There's no comparison whatsoever in velocity, and that's that's before you get into bullet weights, the "m" part of the 1/2mv² equation.
If you can tolerate the bigger action of the AR10 platform, and aren't looking to build a subsonic-centric gun for suppressed use, then compact 308 is the way to go. There's a reason why FN spent so much money building the SCAR-17.
As for the flash? That's what going with a brake+comp is for.
Having to adjust a part still means it's sensitive to that change.
All the other rifles you mention can be tuned. No, not always as easy as changing one part but gas systems aren't rocket science. I've even made my MAS 49/56 adjustable.
You do have to tweak based on ammo. MP5s have 3 locking pieces based on ammo. .40/10mm ea have 2 more. Add a suppressor and you need yet another for hi & low impulse ammo. The reason a G3 will usually run with just one lock is that's its way over'gassed' by default. If you have a collection of HKs, you'll eventually end up with a pile of lock pieces to tune.
All the other rifles you mention can be tuned. No, not always as easy as changing one part but gas systems aren't rocket science. I've even made my MAS 49/56 adjustable.
The 8.5" PTR should be 30" w/ a HK21 butt pad. A fraction shorter w/ a regular one.
Thanks you have effectively reinforced my entire argument.
On the rare occasion you have an ammunition problem, you may have to change a locking piece. I have a pile of roller locked guns, and a pile of locking pieces I have never had to use. Most of my locking pieces were bought for minimal price and IF ever necessary I could have them ground to match the geometry required. I've never had to exercise this option because I've never encountered a broken locking piece, or a failure related to gas sensitivity.
The G3 being designed overgassed allows it to run with a variety of ammunition. Unlike the M14, where the wrong ammunition can bend an op rod. And unlike the FAL, where the wrong ammunition can induce failures.
I've got thousands of rounds through various roller locked variants in different calibers with different barrel lengths. The only issues I have ever encountered were not related to gas, but to timing associated with hammer geometry, and this really only becomes a factor in FA.
I know there was much ado about the 5.56 rifles and ammunition sensitivity but I can tell you I have never encountered it with the commonly available 5.56/.223 ammunition available, 55gr and up. I have not tried frangible but have been told it won't cycle the 5.56 rifles. Of course 5.56 FAL clones are as rare as hens teeth and the Mini is not an M14 clone, so its not really a fair comparison. HK developed successful 5.56 clones varying in barrel length from 8" to 16".
As for 7.62x51 G3 variants I dont know how many different kinds of ammunition I have used in them, ranging from junk ammo up to FGMM. The only failure I have ever experienced attributed to ammunition was that the feed geometry in these rifles is not conducive to soft point ammunition. The lead tip has a tendency to hang up and with the power of the recoil spring and weight of the bcg it does a pretty good job smashing up the round.
The difference is, at worst in a roller locked clone you MAY have to swap a locking piece. I NEVER have had to. As opposed the the gas orifice size in a M14 or FAL, which may require you to drill the barrel. No going back. If an M14 won't run with a fixed gas plug, using a Schuster won't give it any more gas. The Schuster only helps by reducing gas. The FAL only has limited settings unless you are aware of Schuster style plug that allows more available settings, again only usable to reduce gas flow, not increase it.
I have not read any reports of unreliable operation from 8" or 12" G3 clones. The same cannot be said of M14 and FAL clones with barrel lengths less than 18". The 4" clones exhibit issues related to hammer timing but frankly the concussion put off at the barrel length relegates them to range toy status. I would venture to guess the 5.56 builds with 4" barrels would fall into the same category. It is surprising as barrel length gets shorter, 5.56x45 becomes as concussive as 7.62x51. After getting a 4" in 7.62x51 I no longer had any desire to get one in 5.56x45, and I don't have much use for my one in 9mm because frankly it doesnt do anything I cant do with a Glock 17.
I have only ever encountered photos of one M14 clone with a barrel length less than 16" and I would venture to guess it was extremely ammunition sensitive.
Better to swap one locking piece than have to drill a barrel, risk an op rod, work up gun specific handloads, attempt to lighten a bolt, or have to throw away a box of cut springs.
On the rare occasion you have an ammunition problem, you may have to change a locking piece. I have a pile of roller locked guns, and a pile of locking pieces I have never had to use. Most of my locking pieces were bought for minimal price and IF ever necessary I could have them ground to match the geometry required. I've never had to exercise this option because I've never encountered a broken locking piece, or a failure related to gas sensitivity.
The G3 being designed overgassed allows it to run with a variety of ammunition. Unlike the M14, where the wrong ammunition can bend an op rod. And unlike the FAL, where the wrong ammunition can induce failures.
I've got thousands of rounds through various roller locked variants in different calibers with different barrel lengths. The only issues I have ever encountered were not related to gas, but to timing associated with hammer geometry, and this really only becomes a factor in FA.
I know there was much ado about the 5.56 rifles and ammunition sensitivity but I can tell you I have never encountered it with the commonly available 5.56/.223 ammunition available, 55gr and up. I have not tried frangible but have been told it won't cycle the 5.56 rifles. Of course 5.56 FAL clones are as rare as hens teeth and the Mini is not an M14 clone, so its not really a fair comparison. HK developed successful 5.56 clones varying in barrel length from 8" to 16".
As for 7.62x51 G3 variants I dont know how many different kinds of ammunition I have used in them, ranging from junk ammo up to FGMM. The only failure I have ever experienced attributed to ammunition was that the feed geometry in these rifles is not conducive to soft point ammunition. The lead tip has a tendency to hang up and with the power of the recoil spring and weight of the bcg it does a pretty good job smashing up the round.
The difference is, at worst in a roller locked clone you MAY have to swap a locking piece. I NEVER have had to. As opposed the the gas orifice size in a M14 or FAL, which may require you to drill the barrel. No going back. If an M14 won't run with a fixed gas plug, using a Schuster won't give it any more gas. The Schuster only helps by reducing gas. The FAL only has limited settings unless you are aware of Schuster style plug that allows more available settings, again only usable to reduce gas flow, not increase it.
I have not read any reports of unreliable operation from 8" or 12" G3 clones. The same cannot be said of M14 and FAL clones with barrel lengths less than 18". The 4" clones exhibit issues related to hammer timing but frankly the concussion put off at the barrel length relegates them to range toy status. I would venture to guess the 5.56 builds with 4" barrels would fall into the same category. It is surprising as barrel length gets shorter, 5.56x45 becomes as concussive as 7.62x51. After getting a 4" in 7.62x51 I no longer had any desire to get one in 5.56x45, and I don't have much use for my one in 9mm because frankly it doesnt do anything I cant do with a Glock 17.
I have only ever encountered photos of one M14 clone with a barrel length less than 16" and I would venture to guess it was extremely ammunition sensitive.
Better to swap one locking piece than have to drill a barrel, risk an op rod, work up gun specific handloads, attempt to lighten a bolt, or have to throw away a box of cut springs.
ShatteredCitizn
Member
ALCON,
I apologize if this has been asked before, but is the DSA SA58, 13" OSW model MD legal? I see the full length is Banned but not this model? Is it because the OAL is below 16"? Does this make it a SBR or pistol out of the box? Thank you!
I apologize if this has been asked before, but is the DSA SA58, 13" OSW model MD legal? I see the full length is Banned but not this model? Is it because the OAL is below 16"? Does this make it a SBR or pistol out of the box? Thank you!
| DS Arms | DS Arms Model SA58 16" Traditional Profile Barrel, PARA Stock Rifle | BANNED | Copy of an enumerated weapon | 1/10/2019 | ||
| DS Arms | DS Arms RPD | Not Banned | Does not meet the definition of a copycat weapon or the definition of a copy of an enumerated weapon | 12/20/2017 |
I have an FAL and although it shoots very well it weighs as much as a small truck. I'm glad I never had to lug it around on a regular basis.
I had a select fire HK-51 and if you wanted to be deaf and by yourself at the range, that was the rifle you wanted.
I had a select fire HK-51 and if you wanted to be deaf and by yourself at the range, that was the rifle you wanted.
Meditator
Active Member
SA58 FAL PISTOL N/A 308 Win, 7.62x51 Nato
MDSP firearm portal (Handgun roster) showed the pistol version is approved.
MDSP firearm portal (Handgun roster) showed the pistol version is approved.
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