carrying a knife

Roneut · Jun 28, 2012

Yup Sorrell was a 42 U.S.C. 1983 action. He won the first suit, and the decision was upheld on appeal. Mind you these were federal cases, not state courts like Bacon, Anderson, and Mackall.

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Unpublished/011565.U.pdf

It is worth noting that Sorrell's arrest was very different from many cases we often discuss. 99% of case law I have reviewed involved the defendant doing something obviously suspicious or overtly illegal and the knife is used as a technicality. Sorrell was just buying clothes, and the police mistook him for someone else who'd robbed a store. He had done absolutely nothing wrong, and if you ask me, McGuigan was just using the knife as a way to save face for screwing up.

esqappellate · Jun 28, 2012

glistam said:
Yup Sorrell was a 42 U.S.C. 1983 action. He won the first suit, and the decision was upheld on appeal. Mind you these were federal cases, not state courts like Bacon, Anderson, and Mackall.

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Unpublished/011565.U.pdf

It is worth noting that Sorrell's arrest was very different from many cases we often discuss. 99% of case law I have reviewed involved the defendant doing something obviously suspicious or overtly illegal and the knife is used as a technicality. Sorrell was just buying clothes, and the police mistook him for someone else who'd robbed a store. He had done absolutely nothing wrong, and if you ask me, McGuigan was just using the knife as a way to save face for screwing up.

Thanks much for the opinion. Wish it had been published. I agree, the LEO in Sorrell went off the reservation. 1983 suits are a good way to remedy that.

AZ Shooter · Aug 5, 2012

Just out of curiosity...do swords count as fixed blades, and if so, does that mean its perfectly legal in MD to open-carry a sword?

ghost1981 · Aug 5, 2012

Here's a little insight from frederick county. I carry around a folder as well. Use it for work. A couple years ago, I carried a butterfly I used for work. One day a cop saw me with it opening up boxes. He approached me and actually asked if it was legal. I popped it open and held the blade across my hand. The basic rule years ago was that the actual blade couldn't be longer than the palm of your hand. The officer held it, kind of in aw, and told me that it was fine. Try not to give any excuse for an officer. Keep either the clip or holder in view at all times you carry. And NO double bladed in MD! Too much of a hassle.

teratos · Aug 5, 2012

ghost1981 said:
Here's a little insight from frederick county. I carry around a folder as well. Use it for work. A couple years ago, I carried a butterfly I used for work. One day a cop saw me with it opening up boxes. He approached me and actually asked if it was legal. I popped it open and held the blade across my hand. The basic rule years ago was that the actual blade couldn't be longer than the palm of your hand. The officer held it, kind of in aw, and told me that it was fine. Try not to give any excuse for an officer. Keep either the clip or holder in view at all times you carry. And NO double bladed in MD! Too much of a hassle.

Isn't that hand thing a bunch of BS?

ghost1981 · Aug 5, 2012

No BS. I still carry and deliver to the state police with it in my pocket.

ghost1981 · Aug 5, 2012

I believe the rule is 4.5 inches of blade. That doesn't account for the handle or the area behind the blade. It is the actual sharpened area that is measured. I'll check to see if the rule was changed or still applies.

ghost1981 · Aug 5, 2012

This is the closest about the maryland law on carrying a knife. Other chats say keep the blade under 4 inches.
http://knife-expert.com/md.txt

teratos · Aug 5, 2012

ghost1981 said:
This is the closest about the maryland law on carrying a knife. Other chats say keep the blade under 4 inches.
http://knife-expert.com/md.txt

"Chats" say keep the blade under 4 inches. Can't find it in the MD law.

- "A folding knife without switchblade but with a locking device... falls within the exception for 'penknives without switchblade" in this section." (1986)

Looks like folders with a locking mechanism are OK. Nothing about length.

ghost1981 · Aug 5, 2012

I know. Unfortunately, the law is too loose to come to a conclusion. Even under MD law, some counties do not allow any pocket knifes. I love knifes and I keep to the basic knowledge rules. If it is sold in a store as a pocket knife in the area you intend to carry, its most likely legal. For Frederick county, I have asked many officers, city, state and county. I've even got to the point of pulling out the knife and letting them see it. Basically, in Frederick it is legal to carry a knife used as a "tool". The blade itself has to be lesser than the palm of your hand. Other counties do not allow. That's law for you. In the end, it might be wiser for you to ask a local cop. Which county are you in? I can ask one of the state boys for you.

teratos · Aug 5, 2012

ghost1981 said:
I know. Unfortunately, the law is too loose to come to a conclusion. Even under MD law, some counties do not allow any pocket knifes. I love knifes and I keep to the basic knowledge rules. If it is sold in a store as a pocket knife in the area you intend to carry, its most likely legal. For Frederick county, I have asked many officers, city, state and county. I've even got to the point of pulling out the knife and letting them see it. Basically, in Frederick it is legal to carry a knife used as a "tool". The blade itself has to be lesser than the palm of your hand. Other counties do not allow. That's law for you. In the end, it might be wiser for you to ask a local cop. Which county are you in? I can ask one of the state boys for you.

I am in Harford county. I have carried a folding knife since I was in my early teens. Never had a problem. There is no prohibition on the length of blade or the carrying of a folding knife either locked open or closed. The "width of your hand" thing is horse shit. There is also MD Court precedent for it:

In Bacon v. State, 586 A.2d 18 (Md. 1991), the Court of Appeals
addressed the question of whether a folding knife that was unfolded
and locked was illegal under Md. Ann. Code art. 27 Â§ 36(a). The
court started its analysis by defining both penknives and switchblades.
Like the In re Daryl L. court, the Bacon court quotes Mackallâ€™s definition
of a penknife. Holding that the open and locked knife was not
banned by the concealed weapons statute, the court wrote:

On the face of the statute, there is no indication contradicting
the view that a penknife is a penknife whether small
or large, whether the blade is closed or open, whether the
blade is locked open or unlocked, whether it is carried concealed
or openly. Its character is not changed by being carried
openly with the blade unfolded; its dangerous
propensity is merely more easily realized.
. . . We call attention to the fact that Mackall v. State, 283
Md. 100, 387 A.2d 762, was decided 13 July 1978. The
General Assembly has had a dozen opportunities to correct
our view of a "penknife" if it believed that our view was
contrary to the legislative intent.

Bacon, 586 A.2d at 22-23. The knife in Bacon had a five-inch blade.
Id. at 20.
To sum up, the highest court in Maryland has more than once
defined "penknife" as "any knife with the blade folding into the handle,
some very large." Maryland cases also establish the legality of a
folding knife with a 3 3/4-inch blade and a locking device as well as
the legality of an unfolded and locked folding knife with a five-inch
blade. Consequently, it is clearly established that a knife, a
folding knife with a folded three-inch blade, is a legal "penknife without
switchblade."

http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/011565.U.pdf

To go even further:

Maryland Criminal Code Title 4-101:

(5) (i) "Weapon" includes a dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, star knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, and nunchaku.

(c) Prohibited.- (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.

There is precedent that carrying a fixed blade knife OPENLY is not illegal.

See "Polk v. Maryland, 2007." which addresses "concealment" and "bowie knives"

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/md-court-...s/1219118.html

Don't know if I'd test that one, though.

pop-gunner · Aug 5, 2012

ghost1981 said:
I believe the rule is 4.5 inches of blade. That doesn't account for the handle or the area behind the blade. It is the actual sharpened area that is measured. I'll check to see if the rule was changed or still applies.

(ii) "Weapon" does not include:
1. a handgun; or
2. a penknife without a switchblade.

Read...
Study...
Educate...

Don't spread speculation.
THX.

Roneut · Aug 6, 2012

AZ Shooter said:
Just out of curiosity...do swords count as fixed blades, and if so, does that mean its perfectly legal in MD to open-carry a sword?

You're functionally correct at least, though I wouldn't phrase it like that per se. A sword counts as a "dangerous weapon," but it's not illegal to carry a dangerous weapon openly unless you threaten people with it. The law only says concealed carry is illegal, and what the law does not prohibit, is allowed.
I know loads of people who are re-enactors (medieval, civil war, etc) that open carry all manner of swords and other large blades in Maryland, and they never have a problem.

Roneut · Aug 6, 2012

ghost1981 said:
I know. Unfortunately, the law is too loose to come to a conclusion. Even under MD law, some counties do not allow any pocket knifes. I love knifes and I keep to the basic knowledge rules. If it is sold in a store as a pocket knife in the area you intend to carry, its most likely legal. For Frederick county, I have asked many officers, city, state and county. I've even got to the point of pulling out the knife and letting them see it. Basically, in Frederick it is legal to carry a knife used as a "tool". The blade itself has to be lesser than the palm of your hand. Other counties do not allow. That's law for you. In the end, it might be wiser for you to ask a local cop. Which county are you in? I can ask one of the state boys for you.

Dude, read this whole thread before your post.

Just because a LEO thinks it might be the law doesn't make it so. In fact most cops I talk to don't really have a firm grip of non-gun weapon law, and have no clue what the case law has been. Any time you ask a LEO about knife carry, he or she is going to answer on the side of caution. The last thing they want is getting in trouble for telling you something is legal when it actually isn't. When the chips are down, most LEO I have talked to use the non-gun weapon statute (4-101) as a "excuse" law to take someone in who is obviously up to something bad, rather than a statute they go out of their way to enforce in a vacuum on people just minding their own business.

MJD438 · Aug 6, 2012

ghost1981 said:
I know. Unfortunately, the law is too loose to come to a conclusion. Even under MD law, some counties do not allow any pocket knifes. I love knifes and I keep to the basic knowledge rules. If it is sold in a store as a pocket knife in the area you intend to carry, its most likely legal. For Frederick county, I have asked many officers, city, state and county. I've even got to the point of pulling out the knife and letting them see it. Basically, in Frederick it is legal to carry a knife used as a "tool". The blade itself has to be lesser than the palm of your hand. Other counties do not allow. That's law for you. In the end, it might be wiser for you to ask a local cop. Which county are you in? I can ask one of the state boys for you.

IANAL, but I do like to research things from time to time. Here is my research based on your quote.

Per the City of Frederick Code of Ordinances (http://www.municode.com/Library/MD/Frederick), the only time a knife "restriction" comes up is in Part II, Chapter 18, regarding Parades, Races, and Walkathons, where there is a restriction on the possession of "dangerous weapons" (underlining emphasis added):

Frederick Code of Ordinances said:
Sec. 18-2. - Definitions

"Dangerous weapon" means a device designed or capable of being used to inflict serious injury upon a person or property, including, but not limited to, firearms, knives with a blade exceeding three (3) inches in length, razor blades, metallic knuckles, clubs, blackjacks, night sticks, dynamite cartridges, bombs, grenades, mines, and any other explosive or incendiary device.

Sec. 18-10. - Public Conduct During Parades, Races and Walkathons.

(a) General Standard. In addition to any other prohibition set forth in this Chapter, a person shall not unreasonably hamper, obstruct or impede, or interfere with any parade or public assembly or with any person, vehicle or animal participating or used in a parade or public assembly.

(b) Vehicles. Unless otherwise directed by a member of the Frederick Police Department, no driver of a vehicle shall drive between the vehicles or persons comprising a parade or public assembly when such vehicles or persons are in motion and are conspicuously designated as a parade or public assembly.

(c) Parking. The City, when reasonably necessary, may prohibit or restrict the parking of vehicles along a street constituting a part of the route of a parade, race, or walkathon, and shall post signs to that effect. Any person who parks or leaves a vehicle unattended in violation of such requirement in a posted area shall be guilty of a parking violation and may be issued a citation in accordance with Section 13-63 of this Code or towed at the owner's expense in accordance with Section 13-21 of this Code.

(d) Signs. A person may not carry or possess any length of metal, lumber, wood, or similar material for purposes of displaying a sign, poster, plaque or notice, unless such object is one-half (½) inch or less in thickness and two (2) inches or less in width, or if not generally rectangular in shape, such object shall not exceed three-fourths (¾) inch in its thickest dimension. A person may not carry any sign, poster, plaque, or notice, whether or not mounted on a length of material as specified in this subsection, unless such sign, poster, plaque, or notice is constructed or made of cloth, paper, cardboard, vinyl, corrugated plastic, or other material without the apparent potential to cause personal injury or property damage.

(e) Dangerous Weapons. Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, a person may not carry a dangerous weapon on any public way, sidewalk, or other public property within five hundred (500) feet of an event permitted pursuant to this Chapter. Law enforcement officers, members of the Armed Forces and National Guard, and uniformed members of an honor guard of a recognized civic or fraternal organization may carry dangerous weapons provided that such persons are acting lawfully.

A search of the Frederick County Code of Ordinances (http://www.amlegal.com/frederickco_md/) for the words "knife" or "knives" comes up empty. A search on the word "weapon" brings us to a Parks and Recreation code (underlining emphasis added):

Frederick County Code of Ordinances said:
§ 1-12-43. WEAPONS AND FIREWORKS.

(A) No person shall have in his or her possession any firearm or weapon, including but not limited to bows, air guns, paint ball guns and slingshots, while on park land unless by permit. This section shall not apply to any persons authorized by law to carry firearms in the discharge of their official duties or to persons participating in programs sponsored and conducted by the Division that involve the use of such firearms and weapons.

(B) No person shall have in his or her possession any fire works or explosives on, over, or onto park land unless by permit.

(C) No person shall discharge any weapon, fireworks or explosives over or onto park land.

(1959 Code, § 30-18(o)) (Ord. 77-12-89, § II, 9-6-1977; Ord. 05-35-396, 10-25-2005; Ord. 07-23-463, 6-26-2007)

Since neither ordinance level applies to the EDC of knives in general (only applying in specific instances), IMO that means that the State Statutes/Regulations apply with local preemption applying to the specific instances called out in the laws. In that case, as others have mentioned, if it is a folding knife, regardless of blade length, it is not considered a weapon.

ghost1981 · Aug 6, 2012

Just ask a local cop. I did. My knife is fine. It's a S&W folder. The blade is about 4 inches

teratos · Aug 6, 2012

ghost1981 said:
Just ask a local cop. I did. My knife is fine. It's a S&W folder. The blade is about 4 inches

Don't have to ask a cop. I read the law.

ANY folder is fine. Any cop who says it isn't should take the time to read the law.

MJD438 · Aug 6, 2012

ghost1981 said:
Just ask a local cop. I did. My knife is fine. It's a S&W folder. The blade is about 4 inches

Sorry, if I want an actual legal opinion on the validity of my EDC knife, I will pay my attorney (IANAL, nor am I a LEO). Local cops are going to provide an informed opinion based on how they were trained and what is in their procedures manuals. Not all local cops are lawyers and I doubt many research the Statutes behind the Regulations they are commanded to enforce.

Case in point - my brother was taught that my 3.5" Gerber folder carried daily inside my waistband when I am in MD would possibly subject me to arrest for carrying a concealed weapon within the City of Baltimore. When I looked at the Code of Public Laws of Baltimore City (http://www.baltimorecity.gov/Portals/0/Charter and Codes/ChrtrPLL/02 - PLL.pdf), I was unable to find any mention of the words Knife, Knives, or Blades. The only mention of the word Weapon relates to the Court House Security Division and the provisioning of weapons for their officers. So it would seem to me that the state law would apply in the City of Baltimore as it was not overridden by local code. Hence, his instructors were incorrect in their knowledge of the law (his instructors are ALL LEO with multiple years of experience in their field - de facto "expert" witnesses in our court systems).

Since I live in HoCo and spend most of my time here, I researched the Howard County Code of Ordinances (http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=14680) for the same issues. In that research, I found that it violates HoCo law to carry a knife in a park without a permit for the activity relating to the use of the knife, ergo, I don't carry a knife when on HoCo park property.

As I mentioned earlier, I did what every concerned citizen should take as a personal responsibility: I looked up the laws in the municipality of which you posted, at both the local and county levels and was only able to locate a single instance in which the local law was more restrictive than the state law. That instance is very specific, only applicable to three types of events as I posted. Therefore, my non-lawyer brain posited that the State Statutes/Regulations must apply - those Statutes/Regulations fail to state anything about the length of a legal folding knife, merely stating that the folding knife is not a weapon.

ghost1981 · Aug 6, 2012

Point well taken. All written laws I've checked do not specify length. Only the types allowed. As with asking a local cop, now I will be consulting with my lawyer. As our senior members say, an attorney is the appropriate way to define concerns.

carrying a knife

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