Proof that My Employer Exists for a CCW Application

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  • Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    27,990
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the state has the burden of proof when depriving you of your rights. Wouldn't they have to prove your employer does NOT exist?



    MSP can easily go on SDAT and check the status of any business incorporated in MD and in fact when they deny a permit they have no problem using the current SDAT status (delinquent on taxes for example) as one of the reasons why.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I am a regular guy, no past LEO or formal investigative training.

    I can figure out who's up to what in about 10 minutes flat with as little as a home address or last name. I encourage people to NOT try to swamp the MSP with paperwork, receipts, statements, etc. One thing is for sure, much like in a court of law, they CAN AND WILL use it against you.

    I recommend giving them the absolute bare minimum, let them do the legwork if they feel the need to. The amount of information on all of us that is out there in the public domain to be consumed for free is amazing, imagine if you had full access to police and MVA records??
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,307
    Underground Bunker
    I am a regular guy, no past LEO or formal investigative training.

    I can figure out who's up to what in about 10 minutes flat with as little as a home address or last name. I encourage people to NOT try to swamp the MSP with paperwork, receipts, statements, etc. One thing is for sure, much like in a court of law, they CAN AND WILL use it against you.

    I recommend giving them the absolute bare minimum, let them do the legwork if they feel the need to. The amount of information on all of us that is out there in the public domain to be consumed for free is amazing, imagine if you had full access to police and MVA records??

    I have provided them with lots of information , and still they F it up and did not include my second company .
    They do this chit on purpose don't let them tell you any different .

    They are the enemy as far as i am concerned because they sure treat me like it . :mad54:
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I have provided them with lots of information , and still they F it up and did not include my second company .
    They do this chit on purpose don't let them tell you any different .

    They are the enemy as far as i am concerned because they sure treat me like it . :mad54:

    I provided public records (SDAT print outs) showing that I own non-owner occupied real estate in an area known to be primarily tenant occupied.

    They're going to need to have quite the sideshow act to articulate to the HPRB WHY my permit was issued with restrictions.

    My initial thoughts on what I explain to the board are pretty short and sweet also, I think I can accomplish it in about 5 sentences and 3 minutes of their time. I'll be very interested to hear how the MSP decided to impose restrictions based on the G&S reasoning I offered........;)
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    I recommend giving them the absolute bare minimum, let them do the legwork if they feel the need to.

    I kept some of my info relatively sparse. Post-interview, the assigned person at the LD sent me an email saying my info wasn't complete enough, and that I needed to provide more (like more tax info and paperwork showing good standing, etc) or that was the end of the process. So what are you suggesting ... that I write back to the person who has the power to deny the permit on a whim, and say, "No. You can look it up yourself..." That's a short path to a denial. And the board is going to allow you introduce more info when, most of a year later (during which you have no permit) you appeal.

    But now, the MSP can just appeal a reversal right to the OAH, where the judge can say, "Did you do what they asked?" And if you say, "No, your honor, I told them they could look it all up themselves," what do you suppose the judge is going to do? The OAH isn't about challenging the MSP's role or the principles involved, or whether or not a given LD staffer is lazy or a douchebag ... it's about reviewing whether or not the agency followed their own procedures.

    If you don't do what the LD asks in the first place, you're going to fail before that judge, and have to start saving a few thousand dollars for your trip to Circuit Court, months and months later if you're lucky. Meanwhile no permit for a year and a half or more, because you wanted to make a cranky investigator look up information they asked you to provide. Talk about diminishing returns just to have a few moments of hollow pleasure telling them off. I'd rather have the permit. This is Maryland, where you choose your battles.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I wasn't under the impression that was the way the OAH worked......... at all. Their function is to review the process ALL the way back to your application package?

    My renewal came through with no "interview", no phone call, no references called and literally 6 additional 8.5X11 sheets of paper included with my application.

    I guess if you guys want to give them 3 years of tax returns, copies of your diary and a DNA swab, be my guest.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    And then we'll have to act shocked when new guys show up here and wonder why the MSP has requested a chart tracking their wife's menstrual cycle.

    But, no worries because they'll be a plethora of lawyers here who will offer a template and representation.

    If the goal is to flip the REST of the actual law abiding citizens to live like those who couldn't give less of a fvck, the State is succeeding.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Oh, I also forgot what they'll still be a bountiful supply of.........

    MSP fanboys who are quite content with them not doing their job and/or making it up as they go. For every one person who enjoys jumping through the hoops at every dog and pony show the State can make up there are FIVE people who read about it and say............ef that.

    No one wants to sign up for a process that sounds like it ends up in you hiring a lawyer to finish.

    Day one
    Day two
    First day of 2nd term
    Second day of 3rd quarter of second term.
    First day after Easter of the last year.



    Thanks a bunch Uncle 'Lar.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    I guess if you guys want to give them 3 years of tax returns, copies of your diary and a DNA swab, be my guest.

    Let's see if we can make this clearer. If you want a permit, and they say they will deny it if they don't get what they ask for within 10 days, the choice is simple. I wanted the permit, so I produced the paperwork. You don't want to produce the paperwork, so you would have been denied the permit. Is there a way to make it any clearer?
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    27,990
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    I kept some of my info relatively sparse. Post-interview, the assigned person at the LD sent me an email saying my info wasn't complete enough, and that I needed to provide more (like more tax info and paperwork showing good standing, etc) or that was the end of the process. So what are you suggesting ... that I write back to the person who has the power to deny the permit on a whim, and say, "No. You can look it up yourself..." That's a short path to a denial. And the board is going to allow you introduce more info when, most of a year later (during which you have no permit) you appeal.

    But now, the MSP can just appeal a reversal right to the OAH, where the judge can say, "Did you do what they asked?" And if you say, "No, your honor, I told them they could look it all up themselves," what do you suppose the judge is going to do? The OAH isn't about challenging the MSP's role or the principles involved, or whether or not a given LD staffer is lazy or a douchebag ... it's about reviewing whether or not the agency followed their own procedures.

    If you don't do what the LD asks in the first place, you're going to fail before that judge, and have to start saving a few thousand dollars for your trip to Circuit Court, months and months later if you're lucky. Meanwhile no permit for a year and a half or more, because you wanted to make a cranky investigator look up information they asked you to provide. Talk about diminishing returns just to have a few moments of hollow pleasure telling them off. I'd rather have the permit. This is Maryland, where you choose your battles.

    Original application.

    I wasn't under the impression that was the way the OAH worked......... at all. Their function is to review the process ALL the way back to your application package?

    My renewal came through with no "interview", no phone call, no references called and literally 6 additional 8.5X11 sheets of paper included with my application.

    I guess if you guys want to give them 3 years of tax returns, copies of your diary and a DNA swab, be my guest.



    Renewal.


    BIG difference.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Let's see if we can make this clearer. If you want a permit, and they say they will deny it if they don't get what they ask for within 10 days, the choice is simple. I wanted the permit, so I produced the paperwork. You don't want to produce the paperwork, so you would have been denied the permit. Is there a way to make it any clearer?

    Clear that you are being argumentative over it, yes.

    Clear that playing the games with them is part of what has allowed them to get to where they're even AT today...... yes, we're crystal clear on that.

    When they start requiring home inspections and DNA samples from your family I guess the choice to comply will be just as easy for you. ;)
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    Clear that you are being argumentative over it, yes.

    Clear that playing the games with them is part of what has allowed them to get to where they're even AT today...... yes, we're crystal clear on that.

    When they start requiring home inspections and DNA samples from your family I guess the choice to comply will be just as easy for you. ;)

    So, you're suggesting giving up on the permit? Because that's the other option. It's really not obvious what specific course of action you're proposing when they ask for paperwork. You seem to be saying, "Don't give it to them." Which means no permit. Tacking on snark about family DNA doesn't change that you're essentially telling people not to apply for permits because they'll have to produce the requested paperwork.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I was on renewal (apparently it's different)

    What I'm suggesting is that people provide no more than what a reasonable entity (not the MSP) would require for proof of business. It's already been established that they have an internet connection in the office and access to public records.

    As the State Police continually get their hands smacked for both denials and wildly broad application of restrictions, I think the average applicant should provide no more than what would be reasonably necessary to say..... secure a mortgage on a home.





    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    dreadpirate

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 7, 2010
    5,521
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    So here's an update; after my paperwork was forwarded from the investigator to the Handgun Permit Unit; I sent the Handgun Permit Unit an email with the articles of incorporation for my company and asked if I still had to provide the other items, as this is an assumed risk application. They simply replied "document received"

    Today I got the permit. No bank statements of deposit slips required after all; so I guess the investigator can ask for those items bu it's the board in the end that decides if they are really required (?)

    So FWIW.
     

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