Cumulative Infringement

Ponder_MD · Feb 15, 2021

I have a general question when it comes to fighting against firearms legislation in Maryland. Basically, it's this:

Many laws examined on an individual basis may pass constitutional muster, but when an accumulation of state laws as a whole, greatly infringes upon the 2A, is it not possible to make an argument that some of the laws should be struck down by examining them as a group?

The 2A is not only for the wealthy who can hire lawyers to navigate the web of laws that our legislature has woven.

smokey · Feb 15, 2021

Name a law that would be part of this accumulation of laws that passes constitutionality individually. Each 2a infringement is unconstitutional on its own.

PowPow · Feb 15, 2021

Ponder_MD said:
The 2A is not only for the wealthy who can hire lawyers to navigate the web of laws that our legislature has woven.

The flip side is that wealthy lobbyists DO fund the political careers of anti-gun politicians who endeavor to accumulate such infringements in the name of "common sense".

They work much faster than the law does.

Uncle Duke · Feb 15, 2021

Sadly, they can pass unconstitutional laws a helluva lot faster than we can challenge them. And when you think about it, what incentive do they have to do otherwise?

If we dare to challenge, it is primarily our side that will be bearing the cost of both the challenge and the defense. These people are a lot of things, but they're most certainly not stupid.

Glaron · Feb 15, 2021

Uncle Duke said:
Sadly, they can pass unconstitutional laws a helluva lot faster than we can challenge them. And when you think about it, what incentive do they have to do otherwise?

If we dare to challenge, it is primarily our side that will be bearing the cost of both the challenge and the defense. These people are a lot of things, but they're most certainly not stupid.

BINGO!!!!!
I want politician insurance. Elections aren't helping

I would love for when a law is declared unconstitutional that the politicians that sponsored the law be kicked out forever. Currently there is no penalty for passing laws that violate our own laws and Constitution. :mad54:

Muleskinner · Feb 15, 2021

There are no constitutional gun laws with the exception of the second amendment. The problem is is that we have a bunch of cowardly so-called conservative justices on the supreme Court that up to now have refused to pronounce the second amendment as the only legal gun legislation in the country. And that's probably never going to happen.

Tebonski · Feb 15, 2021

I still have hope the Good Five Scotians will rule soon, next three years and save the 2nd.

Ponder_MD · Feb 15, 2021

Yeah, I understand that none of these laws are really constitutional. I'm looking at this through a politician's lens. Make no mistake, the courts are still political.
So if you operate on the (politician's) premise that there can be a firearms law that is constitutional, we have to ask the question- At what point does a pile of laws have the same effect as a single massive, overreaching, unconstitutional law?

I'm not a lawyer, this is a thought exercise.

The SCOTUS reviews a single law at a time. Maryland is racing ahead with legislation so fast that it'll take decades to overturn them all, which is no doubt part of the plan. The downside of their plan, is that they have no way to enforce a lot of this.

jcutonilli · Feb 15, 2021

Muleskinner said:
There are no constitutional gun laws with the exception of the second amendment. The problem is is that we have a bunch of cowardly so-called conservative justices on the supreme Court that up to now have refused to pronounce the second amendment as the only legal gun legislation in the country. And that's probably never going to happen.

How do you know the problem is with the justices?

Having read many of the briefs that were rejected, it would seem the problem is with the arguments that are presented.

Your argument that the second amendment is the only legal gun legislation does conflicts with what Heller says. Namely that the right is not absolute and that certain longstanding laws are presumed lawful.

teratos · Feb 15, 2021

jcutonilli said:
Your argument that the second amendment is the only legal gun legislation does conflicts with what Heller says. Namely that the right is not absolute and that certain longstanding laws are presumed lawful.

This applies to all of the other amendments listed in the BoR.

jcutonilli · Feb 15, 2021

teratos said:
This applies to all of the other amendments listed in the BoR.

To my knowledge it applies to all of our rights including the second amendment.

Allen65 · Feb 15, 2021

jcutonilli said:
To my knowledge it applies to all of our rights including the second amendment.

I thought 2A, and at least part of 4A, were disfavored rights?

SkiPatrolDude · Feb 15, 2021

This is nothing more than the "death by 1000 cuts" method that gets discussed often. Firstly, every one of these laws pushed is unconstitutional. However, they couldn't ever get them all passed in a single bill, so this is how they do it.

Biden and the left now also realize that they don't even have to make direct gun control measures to restrict our rights. When these big bills fail, they will then turn attention to online retailers and firearm parts. They will likely have an easier time banning the online sale of parts or ammunition, vs banning certain types of firearms themselves.

When is the last time an Aero Precision lower showed up on a crime scene? Just wondering...

dblas · Feb 15, 2021

SkiPatrolDude said:
This is nothing more than the "death by 1000 cuts" method that gets discussed often. Firstly, every one of these laws pushed is unconstitutional. However, they couldn't ever get them all passed in a single bill, so this is how they do it.

Biden and the left now also realize that they don't even have to make direct gun control measures to restrict our rights. When these big bills fail, they will then turn attention to online retailers and firearm parts. They will likely have an easier time banning the online sale of parts or ammunition, vs banning certain types of firearms themselves.

When is the last time an Aero Precision lower showed up on a crime scene? Just wondering...

And this is how we get our rights back, one insignificant bill at a time. But yet when we have done that, it has been met with "so what", "Big deal", and "How does this help me".

viiper · Feb 15, 2021

This reminds me of similar things in government, where item A by itself is unclassified and item B by itself is unclassified.... but then combing the information of item A and item B to understand and see C, then its classified. The mosaic effect if you will. Curious how it might apply, if at all, in legal frameworks to defend our rights and freedoms.

But yeah, as others said here, its ALL unconstitutional, but perhaps more blatantly so when in totality. I'm getting tired of this incrementalism, slow erosion of rights and freedoms over time, the death by 1,000 cuts.

Riley26 · Feb 15, 2021

The 2A applies to " We the people...."

KingClown · Feb 16, 2021

viiper said:
This reminds me of similar things in government, where item A by itself is unclassified and item B by itself is unclassified.... but then combing the information of item A and item B to understand and see C, then its classified. The mosaic effect if you will. Curious how it might apply, if at all, in legal frameworks to defend our rights and freedoms.

But yeah, as others said here, its ALL unconstitutional, but perhaps more blatantly so when in totality. I'm getting tired of this incrementalism, slow erosion of rights and freedoms over time, the death by 1,000 cuts.

Hitler perfected the method and the left has adopted it. Remove freedoms slowly by the time they realize its to late. Thats what is happening to 2A. They are literally using Nazi tactics

Alea Jacta Est · Feb 16, 2021

We bear both sides of the cost. There is zero risk to them. They make up some grossly infringing law. Then they pass it. We challenge it.

That takes time. That takes money. They’re fully employed by US.

It’s our money and time on both sides of the equation.

Justice is not about right and wrong. Indeed it’s all about control and $$$$$.

The legal system is just another marketplace where our hard earned dollars pass each other in the court system and the results are rarely correct or satisfying.

Mush on. Same view for all us dogs save the one at the front.

Ponder_MD · Feb 16, 2021

Alea is right. Laws are being passed far faster than we can challenge them.

Garet Jax · Feb 16, 2021

Ponder_MD said:
Maryland is racing ahead with legislation so fast that it'll take decades to overturn them all, which is no doubt part of the plan. The downside of their plan, is that they have no way to enforce a lot of this.

Unfortunately, in those decades they will have passed many more laws that will need to be overturned. It is like trying to bail water in a leaky boat with a dixie cup.

As for the downside, they don't need to enforce them. Passing them is enough. Sometimes they get the added bonus that someone with guns steps afoul of another law and during the execution of the warrant they will add all the firearms violations and tout how they saved everyone from the next crazy shooter. There is no downside for them to pass these laws.

Cumulative Infringement

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