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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:23 PM #1
Recon_D0c Recon_D0c is offline
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AR pistol and MD

An AR-pistol in md can be any length correct? Therefore not subject to hbar rule. In theory, I could have a 16 inch barreled ar pistol with any barrel profile?

I understand after a certain amount of inches this method can also become classified as a firearm or something other than a pistol and a vertical fore grip can be utilized?
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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:32 PM #2
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Let's say barrel all said and done is 15.5 NOT 16. Would not be classified as a rifle and not subject to hbar rule
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Old September 7th, 2017, 06:14 AM #3
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Cpl different topics here, but here we go :

Pistol may be any bbl length, any bbl profile ( Md ).

Longer than 26in OAL becomes an "Other" , not subject to being considered an AOW , meaning no issues with vertical foregrips ( Federal ).

For purposes of 4-203 , Maryland considers all firearms with < 16in bbl to be Handgun for Carry and Tranasport purposes, regardless of its status under Federal law .

What that means is IF your non-shoulder stocked AR has 15.9 in bbl , it must be transported like a handgun. Ie only to/ from the specific approved destinations. IF your non-shoulder stocked, over 26in OAL AR has 16.1in bbl, it may be transported like a long gun. Ie unloaded, no specific destinations required, subject to same handfull of Grandfathered local ordinances as regular long guns .
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Old September 7th, 2017, 07:23 AM #4
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Any of the braces can be shouldered FYI
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Old September 7th, 2017, 08:02 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggfoot44 View Post
Cpl different topics here, but here we go :

Pistol may be any bbl length, any bbl profile ( Md ).

Longer than 26in OAL becomes an "Other" , not subject to being considered an AOW , meaning no issues with vertical foregrips ( Federal ).

For purposes of 4-203 , Maryland considers all firearms with < 16in bbl to be Handgun for Carry and Tranasport purposes, regardless of its status under Federal law .

What that means is IF your non-shoulder stocked AR has 15.9 in bbl , it must be transported like a handgun. Ie only to/ from the specific approved destinations. IF your non-shoulder stocked, over 26in OAL AR has 16.1in bbl, it may be transported like a long gun. Ie unloaded, no specific destinations required, subject to same handfull of Grandfathered local ordinances as regular long guns .
outstanding way to clearly put it. so in short, length of barrel on a pistol lower never truly changes the guns status in regards to an HBAR ruling. only transportation policy is affected.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 08:41 AM #6
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Pretty much.

Depends on your priorities between wishing for :

1. Shortest possible ( somthing) with front vertical grip

2. Trunk/ Truck gun
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Old September 12th, 2017, 04:56 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggfoot44 View Post
Cpl different topics here, but here we go :

Pistol may be any bbl length, any bbl profile ( Md ).

Longer than 26in OAL becomes an "Other" , not subject to being considered an AOW , meaning no issues with vertical foregrips ( Federal ).

For purposes of 4-203 , Maryland considers all firearms with < 16in bbl to be Handgun for Carry and Tranasport purposes, regardless of its status under Federal law .

What that means is IF your non-shoulder stocked AR has 15.9 in bbl , it must be transported like a handgun. Ie only to/ from the specific approved destinations. IF your non-shoulder stocked, over 26in OAL AR has 16.1in bbl, it may be transported like a long gun. Ie unloaded, no specific destinations required, subject to same handfull of Grandfathered local ordinances as regular long guns .
Just clarifying:
a. An AR pistol with Sig Brace, if you occasionally pair with a 16" upper is still an AR pistol?

b. You don't need to use a HBAR upper since it is a pistol (the Sig brace was not replaced by a stock)?
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Old September 12th, 2017, 07:54 AM #8
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A. I have long since refrained from any commentary involving any flavor of "brace" .

B. A *Pistol* with any length of bbl would not require HBAR, but I suspect that only tangentially addresses the above . As to said upper configuration in combination with any flavor of "brace" , see A directly above.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 08:28 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon_D0c View Post
Any of the braces can be shouldered FYI
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand, that's not necessarily true in terms of what the ATF has released. It's completely contingent on your intent when constructing your AR pistol. Braces are not designed for shouldering, and shouldering a brace does not necessarily mean the weapon was redesigned into a rifle, as a stock is what dictates if something is considered a rifle or SBR. I would not make the general statement that braces can be shouldered, because they cannot be (depending at which ATF letter you're reading).
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Old September 12th, 2017, 12:56 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand, that's not necessarily true in terms of what the ATF has released. It's completely contingent on your intent when constructing your AR pistol. Braces are not designed for shouldering, and shouldering a brace does not necessarily mean the weapon was redesigned into a rifle, as a stock is what dictates if something is considered a rifle or SBR. I would not make the general statement that braces can be shouldered, because they cannot be (depending at which ATF letter you're reading).
its 100% OK to shoulder a pistol brace. Literally zero doubt.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:18 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon_D0c View Post
its 100% OK to shoulder a pistol brace. Literally zero doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon_D0c View Post
its 100% OK to shoulder a pistol brace. Literally zero doubt.
I disagree, but I have a hard time with saying "100%" about pretty much anything. Such is a life of living in the grey, I suppose.

There is currently one Open Letter from the ATF addressing arm braces. This Open Letter states that "Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked." Further clarification of ATF's position through an individual letter was not the proper way to "revoke" or clarify an Open Letter.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:30 PM #12
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hey there Nate. how r u?
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:34 PM #13
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hey there Nate. how r u?
I'm doing great, how are you doing Stu?!

CT is just as messed up as MD when it comes to guns, but all is good outside of that...
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:35 PM #14
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great. yeah I got a CT CCW just in case. At least they will issue a permit.

glad all is well.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:52 PM #15
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For the benefit of our newer OP :

While I am sure NateIU10 isn't offering * Legal Advice * upon the internet , he IS a Lawyer, who specializes in Firearms Issues .
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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:50 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand, that's not necessarily true in terms of what the ATF has released. It's completely contingent on your intent when constructing your AR pistol. Braces are not designed for shouldering, and shouldering a brace does not necessarily mean the weapon was redesigned into a rifle, as a stock is what dictates if something is considered a rifle or SBR. I would not make the general statement that braces can be shouldered, because they cannot be (depending at which ATF letter you're reading).
Intent of having the brace is for cheek weld. The pistol having a Franklin Binary trigger. It may inadvertently come in contact with the shoulder in the course of recoil/ sighting the target. I have been firing a 22 conversion bolt on a 10.5" upper.
Now should I want to swap the upper to a 16" barrel and fire .223 rounds (without changing the brace for a standard stock), since it is still a pistol, should the upper be HBAR?
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:31 AM #17
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Quote:
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Intent of having the brace is for cheek weld. The pistol having a Franklin Binary trigger. It may inadvertently come in contact with the shoulder in the course of recoil/ sighting the target. I have been firing a 22 conversion bolt on a 10.5" upper.
Now should I want to swap the upper to a 16" barrel and fire .223 rounds (without changing the brace for a standard stock), since it is still a pistol, should the upper be HBAR?
I am not a lawyer. The copy of the SB 281 bill that I have states that if a firearm has a barrel under 16 inches, it is considered a handgun. I didn't see anything explicitly saying that a rifle is 16 inches or more, but I may have missed it. That being said, if a handgun is a 16 inch barrel and shorter, then it would be implied that 16 inches or greater is a rifle if the barrel has rifling (i.e. not a shotgun because it isn't smooth bore). This is my interpretation of SB 281.

Additionally, if you have a 16 inch barrel, then that could potentially mean that you would also have to satisfy the minimum 29 inch overall length for the firearm.

So if you had a 16 inch barrel, yes, from what I understand, it would have to be HBAR (applies to .223/5.56, not sure about .308). Please remember that federal law and state laws both combine, and whichever is more strict are the ones that you should follow. One instance that I can think of where that doesn't apply is that if state law contradicts federal law, in which case hopefully someone brings that to a court's attention and has it overturned. In that case you would have to follow the contradictory law in the meantime simply to avoid the trouble of legal fees, getting arrested, etc. while the law is overturned.

I'm not a lawyer, but my personal recommendation is to always stay out of the gray area if you can. That being said, if you want a longer barrel and want to keep the pistol configuration, go with a arm brace/stabilizing blade of some type, along with a barrel that is less than 16 inches (14.5 inches could fit the bill for you, don't pin and weld the muzzle attachment). Overall length won't apply because it's not a rifle (considered a handgun since the barrel is less than 16 inches by Maryland law, and it also doesn't have a stock so it doesn't meet the definition of a rifle for the ATF).

The only other thing that I would advise is that to make sure that when you purchased your lower, that it was purchased as a pistol or receiver, and not a rifle. For a rifle can never be made into a pistol according to the ATF, but a pistol can be converted a rifle and then converted back into a pistol.

Regarding the second part of your original post for the ATF classification, it is a little more complex. If you have an AR pistol that has a barrel under 16 inches, but the overall length is greater than 26 inches, then it is classified simply as "firearm", not AOW. In this case, yes, you can have a vertical foregrip because it doesn't change the fact that the weapon was designed to be fired with one hand (pistol definition). If you have an overall length of less than 26 inches and a barrel length of less than 16 inches, then you cannot put a vertical foregrip on it. You can put an angled foregrip on it. As far as I know, an angled foregrip does not count as an additional pistol grip from the last that I saw from the ATF. Keep in mind this is simply at the federal level, and there may be state laws that apply further. If these are things that you are interested in doing, I would do as much as you can to find out as much as possible about the legalities of these configurations. Preferably, talking to a lawyer that is familiar with both the federal laws and state laws of where you live.

If I may ask, what is your desire for a 16 inch barrel?
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Old September 13th, 2017, 06:06 AM #18
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He wants to hear 16in plus pistol brace as a workaround to a quasi rifle w/o HBAR .

What is rifle, what is pistol, what is Both, what is neither, what is NFA in combination with any of the above is an Alice in wonderland situation .

Key points :

Per Md , bbl < 16in = pistol regardless of anything else.

Per Md AND Fed , Rifle must be " designed to be fired from shoulder " . True pistols may have bbl over. 16In . Best known popular example is the T/C Contender Super 16 , with actual bbl length of 16.25in .

Without commenting on the wisdom , I can sympathize with the motivation to take optimistic interpretations of "Arm Brace " letter de jour to avoid NFA and delays thereof with shorties. For just sidestepping a bbl profile, I'm not seeing the potential juice .
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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:42 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggfoot44 View Post
Pretty much.

Depends on your priorities between wishing for :

1. Shortest possible ( somthing) with front vertical grip

2. Trunk/ Truck gun
If he were to add a vertical grip then it would be considered a SBR and not a pistol.

Last edited by ADCOLE; September 13th, 2017 at 09:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:46 AM #20
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Not sure what is " SBAR " ?

Vert fore grip AND < 26in OAL = Fedral AOW , banned in Maryland.

Vert fore grip AND bbl < 16in, but OAL > 26in = Other ( non- NFA) for Federal, , but Pistol in Md .

Vert Foregrip AND bbl> 16in AND OAL > 26in = Other for both Federal and Md . Transport by long gun regs for Md .

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