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  • ST19AG_WGreymon

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 16, 2009
    2,405
    Odenton
    The problem of 91/30's was well known in the '70's through the '90's. Many bring back rifles from Vietnam ( I had a couple) had rough bores. In the middle eighties thru the '90's some unscrupulous wholesale houses were vat cleaning MN's to make them look better, cutting them down, threading the barrel and selling them as shooters.

    This wasn't a problem until the Chech ammunition started to be imported. Chech ammo had a heavy coat of lacquer which preserved them very well. When you combined them with rough chambers, it was an accident waiting to happen. This stuff was so bad, if you shot a 20 round box one after another in a pristine chamber, it would still start sticking as the rifle heated up.

    When this happens, usually you will rip the rim off trying to get it out with the bolt. The next thing some people did was unknowingly allow the bolt to go back over the magazine interrupter. Then they would ram the bolt home not noticing that it had picked up another round.

    I have seen two people injured in this manner. One has a scar on his underarm with about 100 stitches in it. The other had less damage but it was across his hand and cut some nerves. In both cases, the round acting as firing pin did not detonate. The gas coming out of the receiver is what did them in as the bullet plugged the barrel and the gas took the path of least resistance. The case of the one I saw was split lengthwise and didn't appear to have fragmented at all. The bolts stayed in both guns and they probably would have functioned again after cleaning.

    This risk has been mitigated by the surplus market drying up. Just remember if you buy surplus 7.62x54 ammo and it comes in a green or blue box of twenty, it will be lacquer coated. Those of you shooting PP or even Russian surplus, shouldn't have any problems.

    I have two boxes of this stuff, can't remember where I got it. I will be cautious when utilizing it. Thanks for the heads up.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Single feeding will not stop this from happening. And what happened is not specific to Mosins. Any rifle that does not extract a live round could have this happen.

    My hunch is that it is more of a Mosin thing because their action typically requires a lot more brute force to operate (in my humble experience, at least:o). If something like a Krag or Lee Enfield double fed, the operator would be more likely to feel the obstruction and stop rather than bludgeoning the bolt all the way home.

    Just a thought :shrug:
     

    JoeyBimmer

    Active Member
    Jul 22, 2020
    574
    Eldersburg MD
    Generally when bench shooting I single load.
    Even with semi auto rifles.
    If there’s an ammo / rifle problem I can rapidly detect what’s going on, malfunction cause, clear the breech, Examine brass etc then carry on.
    I already know the magazine works, extraction occurs as expected and everything is going as planned.
    After the shot is plotted I can then inspect brass, make sight corrections log info and all that happy horse&$”t.

    That sounds miserable.

    I don't own a Mosin...

    You should buy one, they are a hoot. They are getting more expensive these days. I do not know if I could justify spending $350+ for one.

    Controlled feed FTW.

    you like single feeding also? I hate it.
     

    135sohc

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 27, 2013
    1,157
    By design a controlled feed rifle is less likely to have a double feed issue. Unless the extractor claw is broken off. From the moment the bolt is moving forward to strip a round from the magazine, as the cartridge is coming up it gets hooked by the extractor. On a push feed rifle (like the mosin) the extractor does not lock onto the case rim until the bolt is fully seated/closed.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    By design a controlled feed rifle is less likely to have a double feed issue. Unless the extractor claw is broken off. From the moment the bolt is moving forward to strip a round from the magazine, as the cartridge is coming up it gets hooked by the extractor. On a push feed rifle (like the mosin) the extractor does not lock onto the case rim until the bolt is fully seated/closed.

    What you say about the Mauser designed extractor is true. But Mosins are cool, especially since the ammo they used was developed in 1891 and is still in use today.

    That said, I gave all mine away including two bring backs. Old age and arthritis don't play well with the Mosin Nagant rifle. :lol:
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    That sounds miserable.

    I don't particularly think so, if you consider manipulating box magazines, stripper clips and en-blocs provides more satisfaction to some people when shooting from a field position.

    Every once in a while though, Ill really get nuts, spice it up and maybe load one or two rounds in a Krag magazine.

    Dupont/IMR is going to send me a letter of appreciation for stepping up and doing my part to keep the plant running I think one day.:D
     

    BlueFin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 3, 2007
    1,175
    Montgomery Village
    Double feed? No matter how I try to think, I cannot picture how. Sound like the cartridge fired before chamber. Might be firing pin protrusion problem.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Double feed? No matter how I try to think, I cannot picture how. Sound like the cartridge fired before chamber. Might be firing pin protrusion problem.

    Round was stuck in the chamber. Shooter pulls hard on the bolt and breaks the rim of the case off, then rams the bolt back without thinking about it picking up a round from the magazine.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    I plan on taking my M-44 up there this weekend to ladder test some hand loads. Surplus shot patterns from this rifle. My handloads are much more consistent and I just started on developing a load for it on the last range trip. Hoping to narrow things down a little this weekend.

    A Mosin that is tough to open the bolt on after firing, can easily be made to operate smoothly with a little polishing on a few key surfaces where the bolt contacts the receiver on locking. These rifles were hastily manufactured and generally need some fitting. Once done, extracting expended rounds requires only a little force and saves a lot of wear and tear on the operators hand. The fix takes very little effort and makes a ton of difference. Hard to imagine that a bolt that fits so loosely in the receiver can be such a bear to open after firing.

    For those that do not wish to modify the gun(although very minor in nature), a less permanent way to make it easier is to pull back on the cocking mechanism to reset the trigger before unlocking the bolt.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    In case you don't know, the MN44 was zeroed with the bayonet extended. Additionally, I have made many MN's shoot well by cutting an inch off the barrel and recrowning it. Sometimes it didn't take that much and I didn't have to reloate the sight.
     

    BlueFin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 3, 2007
    1,175
    Montgomery Village
    Round was stuck in the chamber. Shooter pulls hard on the bolt and breaks the rim of the case off, then rams the bolt back without thinking about it picking up a round from the magazine.

    Oh I see. so the round behind the stuck round in the chamber is the one that fired and blow the receiver?
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    No. Actually what has happened in the cases I have seen, the rough chamber was cruded up by Lacquer, carbon and unburned powder. The next round does not fully chamber but sticks, the shooter beats the bolt open and, suspecting the extractor has just "come off" the rim, rams the bolt back to try to remove it. When the bolt comes back far enough it rides over the interrupter and allows a round to come up ready to chamber. When the bolt is thrown forward, the new cartridge hits the primer on the stuck cartridge and it explodes. The bullet goes forward and blocks the barrel and the gas heads backwards. Since the bolt is not locked, the pressure pushes on the case which sends the bolt back as the case ruptures. BTW, the one I saw, just opened up and did not fragment. It happened just like the demos I saw during EOD training in the military. That hot gas coming out is what tears up the shooter.
     

    BlueFin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 3, 2007
    1,175
    Montgomery Village
    No. Actually what has happened in the cases I have seen, the rough chamber was cruded up by Lacquer, carbon and unburned powder. The next round does not fully chamber but sticks, the shooter beats the bolt open and, suspecting the extractor has just "come off" the rim, rams the bolt back to try to remove it. When the bolt comes back far enough it rides over the interrupter and allows a round to come up ready to chamber. When the bolt is thrown forward, the new cartridge hits the primer on the stuck cartridge and it explodes. The bullet goes forward and blocks the barrel and the gas heads backwards. Since the bolt is not locked, the pressure pushes on the case which sends the bolt back as the case ruptures. BTW, the one I saw, just opened up and did not fragment. It happened just like the demos I saw during EOD training in the military. That hot gas coming out is what tears up the shooter.

    I see it now. I don't shoot my Mosins that often but I do.

    Thanks
     

    Oldcarjunkie

    R.I.P
    Jan 8, 2009
    12,217
    A.A county
    I could def see it happening if they started to push the round in, then got stuck and backed it up feeding the next rounds tip into the first rounds primer but that is indeed operator error and can happen on most any bolt gun or even a semi auto.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    No. Actually what has happened in the cases I have seen, the rough chamber was cruded up by Lacquer, carbon and unburned powder. The next round does not fully chamber but sticks, the shooter beats the bolt open and, suspecting the extractor has just "come off" the rim, rams the bolt back to try to remove it. When the bolt comes back far enough it rides over the interrupter and allows a round to come up ready to chamber. When the bolt is thrown forward, the new cartridge hits the primer on the stuck cartridge and it explodes. The bullet goes forward and blocks the barrel and the gas heads backwards. Since the bolt is not locked, the pressure pushes on the case which sends the bolt back as the case ruptures. BTW, the one I saw, just opened up and did not fragment. It happened just like the demos I saw during EOD training in the military. That hot gas coming out is what tears up the shooter.

    Exactly.

    It should not do anything to the receiver, but may damage the bolt. And brass fragments shotgun out of the breech.

    Many years ago some moron at AGC tried to chamber the wrong cartridge. When the bolt did not close, he got a piece of wood and tried to hammer the bolt closed. I did say MORON.

    When that did not work, he hammered the bolt open, and of course, ripped the rim off the round.

    So he got some help. And they ended up driving to drive the round out with a cleaning rod. They carefully kept the muzzle pointed down range, not realizing that the muzzle was not the dangerous end.

    The round went off, and the guy holding the rifle (bolt was removed) got a lot of brass fragments into his shoulder.
     

    OLM-Medic

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 5, 2010
    6,588
    Cresap RSO will enforce a similar cadence. Why would you call HB anti gun?

    one shot every two seconds? who would ever shoot like that in a real self defense situation?

    anyone who enforces rules that promote the idea that 2a is about hunting and not defense is anti gun in my eyes.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    In case you don't know, the MN44 was zeroed with the bayonet extended. Additionally, I have made many MN's shoot well by cutting an inch off the barrel and recrowning it. Sometimes it didn't take that much and I didn't have to reloate the sight.

    I am aware and get remarks from the at least one of the RSOs every time I put the M-44 on the bench with the bayonet deployed. Apparently he will not allow me to charge the target when I run out of ammo.
    Bedding the barrel has made the POI change when it is folded, less pronounced but still off to the left from POA.
     

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