Your pick for .45ACP w/threaded barrel

Merlin · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:
SIG would be my last choice.

Heres my order:

HK MK23
HK USP Tactical
FNP 45 Tactical

Why do you feel that way about Sig? Side by side they are all nice guns, but I feel the workmanship in a Sig is a cut above. Many are built in the US now, however they are built to the same standards as the guns built over seas. Your thoughts?

Redd Byrd · Nov 10, 2010

Russ D said:
If you have the hands for it the FNP would be my choice. That gun is not designed for small hands.

could not be happier with mine :thumbsup:

Maverick0313 · Nov 10, 2010

Hands down FNP.

randyho · Nov 10, 2010

I'd probably pick up a barrel for my G21sf, then get the slide milled for an rmr. I'd be money ahead with a gun I already like and trust.

Otherwise, FNP.

wlc · Nov 10, 2010

The only one I have experience with is the FNH - as long as the grip fits your hand, it's an awesome gun

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

Merlin said:
Why do you feel that way about Sig? Side by side they are all nice guns, but I feel the workmanship in a Sig is a cut above. Many are built in the US now, however they are built to the same standards as the guns built over seas. Your thoughts?

Because SIG dont make guns like they used to. Unless you get a German made one they are hit or miss. I have seen it first hand, quality has suffered tremendously in recent years. If you buy a N.H. made SIG you are simply paying for a name IMO. I disagree that they are built to the same standard. They fit, finish, and durability has sufered. SIG has cut corners to save money. They are riding on a name now to hide this.

Do people get good guns from SIG N.H.? Sure, but my experience says my money can be spent elsewhere and I dont have to wonder if Ill have to rework the gun soon, or send it back for service and be without it for an unspecified amount of time.

HK's and Glocks (9's and 45's) hold up extremely well and have less problems across thre board. Glocks are MUCH more affordable, so I know quality and price/affordability can go hand in hand. HK's are about on par with SIG, yet HK's are never in my face for problems.

M&P's and FN's are nice platforms but havent been out long enough for me to trust them completely yet. I dont see them for problems often either.

I know 9/10 people reading this are either getting mad, or dont believe me. So be it, but Im telling the truth. Im not out to piss anyone off, and Im not a product fanboy. If HK's and 9/45 Glocks starts going **** up, ill change my advice. I have product loyalty when the product works. If I pay top dollar for a SIG it should work, same goes for any expensive gun platform.

Baccusboy · Nov 10, 2010

Clandestine, I can't speak for SIG quality, but I will agree that "built in the USA" doesn't mean what it used to. I know you didn't say that directly, but that's sort of what I believe your post comes down to.

I know I'll draw a lot of fire for saying it, but the "made in the USA/built local" brand image is suffering a lot these days. I contribute it to a mix of companies where workers are paid far less compared to other jobs (and have no reason to be proud of their work), and other companies where some unions protect overpaid, lazy, useless idiots like this:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/2...camera-drinking-beer-smoking-pot-lunch-break/

Obviously, it varies from product to product, but in the USA, where the average manufacturing worker is no longer paid good wage, has little or no job security, or is at the opposite end of the spectrum and can get away with being a lazy bum, problems naturally develop.

Many Americans from my generation and after find it difficult to feel a sense of pride in their employer when they are treated as expendable while the boss gets fatter and fatter off of bonuses. I'll never, never, never forget my former boss pulling up in a brand new corvette the same week we were told we wouldn't receive any raises and the company parties were canceled due to budget problems. Everyone knew what happened -- he cut the budget down enough that he got a bonus for it. This kind of crap is all too typical these days, and the divide between the rich and everyone else just grows wider.

Very difficult to be proud of your company and the work you put into their products when that kind of thing happens.

Merlin · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:
Because SIG dont make guns like they used to. Unless you get a German made one they are hit or miss. I have seen it first hand, quality has suffered tremendously in recent years. If you buy a N.H. made SIG you are simply paying for a name IMO. I disagree that they are built to the same standard. They fit, finish, and durability has sufered. SIG has cut corners to save money. They are riding on a name now to hide this.

Do people get good guns from SIG N.H.? Sure, but my experience says my money can be spent elsewhere and I dont have to wonder if Ill have to rework the gun soon, or send it back for service and be without it for an unspecified amount of time.

HK's and Glocks (9's and 45's) hold up extremely well and have less problems across thre board. Glocks are MUCH more affordable, so I know quality and price/affordability can go hand in hand. HK's are about on par with SIG, yet HK's are never in my face for problems.

M&P's and FN's are nice platforms but havent been out long enough for me to trust them completely yet. I dont see them for problems often either.

I know 9/10 people reading this are either getting mad, or dont believe me. So be it, but Im telling the truth. Im not out to piss anyone off, and Im not a product fanboy. If HK's and 9/45 Glocks starts going **** up, ill change my advice. I have product loyalty when the product works. If I pay top dollar for a SIG it should work, same goes for any expensive gun platform.

I don't think anyone is getting mad with you, however many may not agree. Me for one. All to often I see/hear people automatically never like it when any company changes how the operate.

When you have guys who have been into guns for years it is most often just a knee jeans reaction to automatic say the new way is not as good as the old. I have seen both and many I have seen I feel are much better then the old guns because of improvements in the process.

My old timers friends who are into country music don't like the new country music, My Harley motorcycle friends don't like the new motorcycles. For many reasons many people automatically just don't like anything new and will automatically just say the new stuff is not as good. I own a sig and will put it up against any older sig any day.

Also you have to consider many who own the old guns will be motivated to imply the old guns are better then the new guns just to justify the higher price they want to place on them. But that's just a greed thing.

The bottom line with most things in life many are influenced easily and form their opinions from that influence instead of the facts.

And agree or not. I think the Sig, new one are not is a way better gun then any HK.

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

Merlin said:
I don't think anyone is getting mad with you, however many may not agree. Me for one. All to often I see/hear people automatically never like it when any company changes how the operate.

When you have guys who have been into guns for years it is most often just a knee jeans reaction to automatic say the new way is not as good as the old. I have seen both and many I have seen I feel are much better then the old guns because of improvements in the process.

My old timers friends who are into country music don't like the new country music, My Harley motorcycle friends don't like the new motorcycles. For many reasons many people automatically just don't like anything new and will automatically just say the new stuff is not as good. I own a sig and will put it up against any older sig any day.

Also you have to consider many who own the old guns will be motivated to imply the old guns are better then the new guns just to justify the higher price they want to place on them. But that's just a greed thing.

The bottom line with most things in life many are influenced easily and form their opinions from that influence instead of the facts.

And agree or not. I think the Sig, new one are not is a way better gun then any HK.

My points went over your head.

It has nothing to do with me not liking change. All of my guns wether they are old are new have modern updates. Im not an old timer set in his ways.

My comments about quality have nothing to do with greed or wanting to justify overcharging someone for a German made SIG. Im not offering anything for sale.

You asked for my answer, and I gave it based on experience. Its obvious you didnt want my advice, you just wanted to debate because you are a SIG guy. Heres where I come from: I have handled, fixed and customized countless weapon systems. I dont know your experience, can you please opine? Im happy you like your SIG, and that it works. My experience tells me there are other options that exceed SIG's current offerings in accuracy, durability, and relibility.

I guarantee you that a HK USP Tac, or MK23 SOCOM will run circles around any N.H. built SIG in the accuracy department, and will still be as if not more reliable. If SIG had a more accurate model, it would have replace my HK USP Tactical. If SIG makes a model that does such I will happily reverse my statements on this issue.

I would bet my reputation that a G17/19/21 would run a SIG into the ground in the reliability, and durability department. It may not be as accurate as a SIG but it will give a SIG a run for its money.

Theres really nothing more I can say to convince anyone, its what I have observed first hand.

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

Baccusboy said:
Clandestine, I can't speak for SIG quality, but I will agree that "built in the USA" doesn't mean what it used to. I know you didn't say that directly, but that's sort of what I believe your post comes down to.

I know I'll draw a lot of fire for saying it, but the "made in the USA/built local" brand image is suffering a lot these days. I contribute it to a mix of companies where workers are paid far less compared to other jobs (and have no reason to be proud of their work), and other companies where some unions protect overpaid, lazy, useless idiots like this:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/2...camera-drinking-beer-smoking-pot-lunch-break/

Obviously, it varies from product to product, but in the USA, where the average manufacturing worker is no longer paid good wage, has little or no job security, or is at the opposite end of the spectrum and can get away with being a lazy bum, problems naturally develop.

Many Americans from my generation and after find it difficult to feel a sense of pride in their employer when they are treated as expendable while the boss gets fatter and fatter off of bonuses. I'll never, never, never forget my former boss pulling up in a brand new corvette the same week we were told we wouldn't receive any raises and the company parties were canceled due to budget problems. Everyone knew what happened -- he cut the budget down enough that he got a bonus for it. This kind of crap is all too typical these days, and the divide between the rich and everyone else just grows wider.

Very difficult to be proud of your company and the work you put into their products when that kind of thing happens.

I agree on some those points, but to be fair there are some U.S. Gun manufacturers who make items, or complete guns that are made exceptionally well.

Ruger and S&W are two off the top of my head

Other companies make parts for AR's that rival other manufacturers such as BCM, and Noveske.

I agree overall U.S. Manufacturing has declined but there are some diamonds in the rough, you just have to do some research.

Merlin · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:
My points went over your head.

It has nothing to do with me not liking change. All of my guns wether they are old are new have modern updates. Im not an old timer set in his ways.

My comments about quality have nothing to do with greed or wanting to justify overcharging someone for a German made SIG. Im not offering anything for sale.

You asked for my answer, and I gave it based on experience. Its obvious you didnt want my advice, you just wanted to debate because you are a SIG guy. Heres where I come from: I have handled, fixed and customized countless weapon systems. I dont know your experience, can you please opine? Im happy you like your SIG, and that it works. My experience tells me there are other options that exceed SIG's current offerings in accuracy, durability, and relibility.

I guarantee you that a HK USP Tac, or MK23 SOCOM will run circles around any N.H. built SIG in the accuracy department, and will still be as if not more reliable. If SIG had a more accurate model, it would have replace my HK USP Tactical. If SIG makes a model that does such I will happily reverse my statements on this issue.

I would bet my reputation that a G17/19/21 would run a SIG into the ground in the reliability, and durability department. It may not be as accurate as a SIG but it will give a SIG a run for its money.

Theres really nothing more I can say to convince anyone, its what I have observed first hand.

The thing is, I'm sure there are plenty or guys with the same if not much more experiences they you who like the sig's more then your HK's. Others will tell you the M&P's walk over both. Pick your brand and you ken find a pro that likes it and will disagree with what your saying.

My point is the fact that you been around guns for some time and did what whatever you do/did with them does not make you the be all that ends all. Your statement about it going over my head is a classic statement from someone who feels they are at a point in their life where they can't learn anymore because they know it all, but only feel theneed to teach others because their way has to be the right way.

Someone with an open mind who understands there is a chance there may be others who manufacture quality guns other then the 2 or 3 you happen to be a fan of. But what do I know, I have only been a shooter for the last 35 years and built 4 guns on my own and recondisioned 22 others. Clearley nothing because I don't feel the way that you do. I hope my hidden meening did not go over your head.

I shot the MK 23 5 times and it did not show me anything. I guess your just a HK guy.

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

Merlin said:
The thing is, I'm sure there are plenty or guys with the same if not much more experiences they you who like the sig's more then your HK's. Others will tell you the M&P's walk over both. Pick your brand and you ken find a pro that likes it and will disagree with what your saying.

My point is the fact that you been around guns for some time and did what whatever you do/did with them does not make you the be all that ends all. Your statement about it going over my head is a classic statement from someone who feels they are at a point in their life where they can't learn anymore because they know it all, but only feel theneed to teach others because their way has to be the right way.

Someone with an open mind who understands there is a chance there may be others who manufacture quality guns other then the 2 or 3 you happen to be a fan of. But what do I know, I have only been a shooter for the last 35 years and built 4 guns on my own and recondisioned 22 others. Clearley nothing because I don't feel the way that you do. I hope my hidden meening did not go over your head.

I shot the MK 23 5 times and it did not show me anything. I guess your just a HK guy.

Im not going to insult you, and I know you are looking for a fight, I have no time for people like you.

CMOS · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:
Because SIG dont make guns like they used to. Unless you get a German made one they are hit or miss. I have seen it first hand, quality has suffered tremendously in recent years. If you buy a N.H. made SIG you are simply paying for a name IMO. I disagree that they are built to the same standard. They fit, finish, and durability has sufered. SIG has cut corners to save money. They are riding on a name now to hide this.

Absolutely this is 100% right. We can stare into our belly buttons all day and wonder about it or we can just accept it as the fact that it is.

SCARCQB · Nov 10, 2010

For Me

#1 HK USP tactical
Proven performance, especially when suppressed

#2 FN Tactical
Everything I wanted to add onto an HK USP tactical. FN threw it in there ( Optical mount, higher capacity, mods on the backstrap, taller sights to clear big cans) #2 because it does not have the track record of the HK USP.

#3 SIG... Only because , a glock was not in the list.

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

SCARCQB said:
For Me

#1 HK USP tactical
Proven performance, especially when suppressed

#2 FN Tactical
Everything I wanted to add onto an HK USP tactical. FN threw it in there ( Optical mount, higher capacity, mods on the backstrap, taller sights to clear big cans) #2 because it does not have the track record of the HK USP.

#3 SIG... Only because , a glock was not in the list.

SCARCQB · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:

Darn it....Clandestine started it!

Merlin · Nov 10, 2010

clandestine said:
Im not going to insult you, and I know you are looking for a fight, I have no time for people like you.

You know as well as I do that's not true. You cant stand someone implying you may be wrong about what your saying. Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I'm looking for a fight. Is that how you think or do?

You know as well as I do there are plenty of well respected pro's in the gun world who love Sig's, HK, Smith, and on and on. They feel their guns are well made guns. Even if they are not HK's. Ho, I know ...except for the HK guys. We know they are the only ones who really know.

Are you telling me they are all wrong because these pros, must not know what they are doing because they don't feel the way that you do?

You feel if someone disagrees with you they are looking for a fight? Your the one who makes the comment that your statements are going over my head, as if I must not be as all knowing as you so I do not understand.

The fact is you just may be wrong. For ever gun out there you can find someone who as been around guns at the highest lever who think the gun they like is among the best made. And that includes all brands.

I'm sure HK has their share of unhappy customers to deal with as do all the rest. Some MK-23 work like a Swiss watch. some ...not so much.

I like what I like because of the feel and how it shoots. I feel the sigs I shot are very well made. But I feel they all make a very good gun. But we all like something different.

I'm sure some part of your love for your HK's and the FPN is the larger mag's. Your one of the bigger is better boys...

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

Merlin said:
You know as well as I do that's not true. You cant stand someone implying you may be wrong about what your saying. Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I'm looking for a fight. Is that how you think or do?

You know as well as I do there are plenty of well respected pro's in the gun world who love Sig's, HK, Smith, and on and on. They feel their guns are well made guns. Even if they are not HK's. Ho, I know ...except for the HK guys. We know they are the only ones who really know.

Are you telling me they are all wrong because these pros, must not know what they are doing because they don't feel the way that you do?

You feel if someone disagrees with you they are looking for a fight? Your the one who makes the comment that your statements are going over my head, as if I must not be as all knowing as you so I do not understand.

The fact is you just may be wrong. For ever gun out there you can find someone who as been around guns at the highest lever who think the gun they like is among the best made. And that includes all brands.

I'm sure HK has their share of unhappy customers to deal with as do all the rest. Some MK-23 work like a Swiss watch. some ...not so much.

I like what I like because of the feel and how it shoots. I feel the sigs I shot are very well made. But I feel they all make a very good gun. But we all like something different.

I'm sure some part of your love for your HK's and the FPN is the larger mag's. Your one of the bigger is better boys...

Again, you misread everything I said. And at the same time tried to bait me into fighting with you. It isnt going to happen.

midcountyg · Nov 10, 2010

I have to agree with SCARCQB and Clandestine. The best results will come from to HK, as it is a proven platform time and time again. The FN is a nice pistol with a lot to offer for the price. It's too new to say just how good it is. I can say the FNP tactical I had for a demo experienced a few baffle strikes when used with a YHM suppressor. Two HKs and another FN didn't have that problem with the same suppressor, so that leads me to believe there was a barrel issue. Sigs and Glocks are both good pistols and may suit your needs greatly, but my opinion for the best is a HK.

clandestine · Nov 10, 2010

SCARCQB said:
Darn it....Clandestine started it!

I dont know anything.

Your pick for .45ACP w/threaded barrel

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