SBR and SRS ruling by MSP
- Thread starter rcpd34
- Start date
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rsj1231
Ultimate Member
This is a crock of shit. When is this effective, the date of the ruling or is it retro'd to October 1st, 2013 since they gave no indication on their stance on SBR's.
I have submitted an e-form 1 via trust in January. Luckily that is the only SBR build I have, and was planning on doing post 10/1.
I have submitted an e-form 1 via trust in January. Luckily that is the only SBR build I have, and was planning on doing post 10/1.
rsj1231
Ultimate Member
So they're saying all SBS and SBR are now handguns and must submitted to the roster board?
Yup that's how I read it. They're considered a "handgun" now. WHAT. THE. F*CK.
iH8DemLibz
When All Else Fails.
And it's not even 2015 yet.
And, amazingly, they still managed to miss a big question: can SBRs ever be copies of ALGs?
Name Taken
Ultimate Member
tc617
USN Sub Vet
But wait a minute...
It appears that is you have a pre October 1 AR-15 lower or AK receiver that was transfered as an "OTHER this advisory does not apply.
You would be altering or manufacturing a SBR from an OTHER, not a RIFLE.
So all you have to do is fill out a FORM 1 with the BATFE as stated below and you are GTG.
It appears that is you have a pre October 1 AR-15 lower or AK receiver that was transfered as an "OTHER this advisory does not apply.
You would be altering or manufacturing a SBR from an OTHER, not a RIFLE.
So all you have to do is fill out a FORM 1 with the BATFE as stated below and you are GTG.
tc617, sorry, but I don't think that logic really works.
You missed the "OR" word. As long as your barrel is under 16", it's an SBR, no matter what it was manufactured from.
Also, the wording is "you may not possess unless". There is nothing stopping another law from prohibiting you. It does not give you a blanket permission to possess that overrides everything else.
The big take-away for form 1s is that you've got to observe the copycat criteria and maybe worry if it's an ALG.
You missed the "OR" word. As long as your barrel is under 16", it's an SBR, no matter what it was manufactured from.
Also, the wording is "you may not possess unless". There is nothing stopping another law from prohibiting you. It does not give you a blanket permission to possess that overrides everything else.
The big take-away for form 1s is that you've got to observe the copycat criteria and maybe worry if it's an ALG.
blksniper2000
certified lurker
Damn!!!! I'm gonna need another drink
Doesn't seem like the end of the world? Please correct me if Im wrong on these examples w/ varying levels of issues:
1) Kriss Vector
The pistol is on the approved handgun roster. The SBR isn't. So buying the SBR directly is no-go unless someone wants to send it in for approval. But the new ruling doesn't stop someone from SBR-ing their pistol on a Form1?? Tougher question might be can someone SBR a carbine (via form1) since that isn't on the list?
Nether meet the copycat law but it will fail the OAL test. They have a folding stock but no other other "evil features".
2) AR pistol
Aren't some of these on the roster? (Engage?). So can Form1 SBR them as long as they don't have 2 evil features? Edit: and are still >29" which isn't too hard to do. Looks like #2 and #3 are still good to go too.
It seems to me the ruling only affects sales of SBR/SBS from FFLs. States they need to not be copycats vs not "assault weapons" themselves? It does not prohibit manufacture for ones-self. Only bans "manufactured for distribution or sale" which a form1 typ isn't. That how I read it. So that brings up:
3) AK pistol
None of these are on the roster AFAIK. No question we have been able to legally build them pre Oct (and possibly post Oct depending on what you believe.) But if you think you can build one legally (and thats the side of the argument I stand on), you can still SBR it on Form1. The ruling states they are treated as pistols. You always have been (and still are?) allowed to manufacture pistols not on the approved roster. W/ the very rare exception of the few "assault pistol" list (still no semi-MACs/Uzi/etc)
How far off base do you guys think I am?
Edit: Reading SB281 again and I forgot that copycat limits to >=29" RIFLES!!!! So that rules out #1 Kriss SBR from a carbine for sure. But still seems to leave the pistol conversion on the table.
1) Kriss Vector
The pistol is on the approved handgun roster. The SBR isn't. So buying the SBR directly is no-go unless someone wants to send it in for approval. But the new ruling doesn't stop someone from SBR-ing their pistol on a Form1?? Tougher question might be can someone SBR a carbine (via form1) since that isn't on the list?
Nether meet the copycat law but it will fail the OAL test. They have a folding stock but no other other "evil features".
2) AR pistol
Aren't some of these on the roster? (Engage?). So can Form1 SBR them as long as they don't have 2 evil features? Edit: and are still >29" which isn't too hard to do. Looks like #2 and #3 are still good to go too.
It seems to me the ruling only affects sales of SBR/SBS from FFLs. States they need to not be copycats vs not "assault weapons" themselves? It does not prohibit manufacture for ones-self. Only bans "manufactured for distribution or sale" which a form1 typ isn't. That how I read it. So that brings up:
3) AK pistol
None of these are on the roster AFAIK. No question we have been able to legally build them pre Oct (and possibly post Oct depending on what you believe.) But if you think you can build one legally (and thats the side of the argument I stand on), you can still SBR it on Form1. The ruling states they are treated as pistols. You always have been (and still are?) allowed to manufacture pistols not on the approved roster. W/ the very rare exception of the few "assault pistol" list (still no semi-MACs/Uzi/etc)
How far off base do you guys think I am?
Edit: Reading SB281 again and I forgot that copycat limits to >=29" RIFLES!!!! So that rules out #1 Kriss SBR from a carbine for sure. But still seems to leave the pistol conversion on the table.
tc617
USN Sub Vet
Okay, let's say that I am building a AR SBR with a 12" barrel with an OAL of 30" on a pre-10/1 lower and run through this advisory.
I. Definition - Okay it is an SBR because it has a barrel under 16".
II. Possesion - It will be okay to posses it because I sent in a FORM 1 to the ATF and it was approved.
III Possesion of "Copycat" weapon - It is not a copycat because it has an OAL of 30".
IV. Wear, Carry or Transportation - I am not going to carry it around but wow, this part is interesting... It says that I may not transport an SBR unless I have a Handgun Carry Permit. How can that be?!?!?
V. Transfer - So in order to receive an SBR I need a background check.
VI. Approval for Sale or Manufacture by Handgun Roster Board - I am not manufacturing it for sale so this does not apply.
So, by reading this advisory, I can build that SBR on a NFA Trust FORM 1 and submit it to the ATF.
Mr H
Banana'd
2 things...
This seems to me to be nothing but a somewhat broader definition of existing law. No new language in any of this. Yeah, it may be problematic for new Form 1 items, but I don't see it being a big deal for anyone else (beyond what FSA13 already did).
This, best I can tell, has zero effect on anyone who purchased lowers pre-October (whether building rifles or pistols), since we can not sell them in MD anyway.
If anyone sees something I've missed, please...
This seems to me to be nothing but a somewhat broader definition of existing law. No new language in any of this. Yeah, it may be problematic for new Form 1 items, but I don't see it being a big deal for anyone else (beyond what FSA13 already did).
This, best I can tell, has zero effect on anyone who purchased lowers pre-October (whether building rifles or pistols), since we can not sell them in MD anyway.
If anyone sees something I've missed, please...
ShallNotInfringe
Lil Firecracker
- Feb 17, 2013
- 8,554
Number IV is subject to 4-203. Re-read the exceptions section : http://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2005/gcr/4-203.html
tc617
USN Sub Vet
Nope, that's exactly how I read it.
tc617
USN Sub Vet
Calengor
wishes he were spike
I know it's wishful thinking on my part, but it appears to me that MSP is choosing one section of the law to listen to while ignoring the other. By 4-201's definitions a handgun is not a rifle, and a short barreled rifle is a rifle or made from a rifle. Therefor, in my humble opinion, their logic does not hold.
ShallNotInfringe
Lil Firecracker
- Feb 17, 2013
- 8,554
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