HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

Hawkeye said:
I'm not actually sure I buy that, and the volume of bills that are introduced every year is part of the issue. This year, there were 87 days (including weekends) in this year's assembly session.

There were 90 days, as there are every year.

Hawkeye said:
If we round down and say that there were 3,000 bills, that leaves 34 (rounded down) bills to read per day of the session. So if each legislator did literally nothing else than read bills for 8 hours a day, that means they could spend a total of about 15 minutes per bill. Now, most of these people do have an assistant (I know my rep has exactly one staffer, for instance) so if you divide that in half then they get a total of a half hour per bill, and again, that's literally reading bills for 8 straight hours a day for 87 days.

Most if not all Delegates concentrate on the bills before them in committee;

In the House, there were 1832 bills, if they were equally distributed among the 7 committees, that would be 262 (261.7) bills per committee.

In the Senate, there were 1269 bills, equally distributed there would be 181 bills per committee.

Given that they have 69 days to hear the bills and get them over to the other chamber, that works out to 4 bills per day for Delegates and 3 bills per day for Senators.

Then they concentrate on those bills that come out committee as favorable in that 69 days, so let's add 2 more per day for grins and giggles. If they cross over then the process starts all over again with bills in committee and then bills that need voted on, on the floor.

Hawkeye said:
Of course that's not practicably possible - they have to do things like have meetings and hold actual votes, and eat, so I don't think they're being untruthful when they say "we just get too many bills to read them all."

As a former staff member to a Delegate, I call BS, based on how it broken down described above, my Delegate had plenty of time to actually read the bills that came across his desk for his direct attention. In some cases, the staff (paid and volunteers) already had a head start on some of the bills in other committees for floor votes.

Hawkeye said:
I do think it's a problem, though, and personally, I would lean toward the idea that there should be limits on the number of pieces of legislation that any one legislator can introduce during a given session. If you were given one bill a year there would be a LOT less ********.

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

44man said:
That would insinuate that our republican reps take their orders from the mike and mike show. That makes better sense than the lies they told me

They (Republicans) take their orders from Nick and Kathy in the House and J.B. and Steve in the Senate.

44man · Jun 15, 2018

dblas said:
They (Republicans) take their orders from Nick and Kathy in the House and J.B. and Steve in the Senate.

I was replying to someone who said, sarcastically?, that mike and mike gave the orders to vote yes on 1302 and the bumpstock bill and the republicans did, most of them

Doesn’t matter who told them to vote anti, republicans should not vote anti

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

Boondock Saint said:
The first reader in committee covers the text of the bill, so any bill that comes across a critter's committee will be read aloud with a copy of it in front of their face. Then there's a second reader, a public hearing on the same bill with testimony for/against, and then potentially a third reader where the bill can be amended and gets a committee vote. The third reader doesn't always happen; that's the desk drawer veto that is the prerogative of committee chairmen.

Wrong order...

Correct order is.

1st Reader - Entered into the Chamber docket and assigned to a committee
Public Committee Hearing
Committee Vote with committee amendments.
Read out of committee (If favorable, then 2nd reader is scheduled)
2nd Reader - Floor amendments to the bill made
3rd Reader - Final version - no Amendments in the originating chamber.

Boondock Saint said:
Absent committee work, the only other time a critter votes on a bill is when it comes to the full floor for amendment/final passage. We're talking about a very small fraction of these record 3,000 bills that each critter needs to read. It's intellectually dishonest to say nothing of a gross violation of public duty to vote on a bill that one hasn't read, or does not understand. Relying on leadership is a recipe for failure.

This is absolutely correct

Boondock Saint said:
I have no doubt that it is a difficult job. It should be. But they ran for office of their own volition. If it's too hard, they should kindly resign and take up something less strenuous.

Link to the legislative process for those that would like read up on it:

http://dls.maryland.gov/pubs/prod/NoPblTabLibResDocs/Legislative-Process.pdf

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

ironpony said:
Who proposes new bills? Can a citizen or group do this? I feel confident some of our favorite groups could come up with an extra 3K for next year therefore making a "new bill limit" a necessity or maybe a bill will get through making froshs favorite hobby dangerous and therefore illegal. Just a thought since our favorite groups are considered opposition and maybe going on the offense will help? Again, just a thought.

Anyone can propose a new bill, finding a sponsor of said bill is the issue. HB1302 is a perfect example of a bill written by a group that is not a legislator.

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

rseymorejr said:
So, he;s not smart enough to look at the bill himself and tell it was a piece of shit? Somebody has to point it out to him ?

Politicians are scum, all of them.

Ding ding ding.

dblas · Jun 15, 2018

44man said:
I was replying to someone who said, sarcastically?, that mike and mike gave the orders to vote yes on 1302 and the bumpstock bill and the republicans did, most of them

Doesn’t matter who told them to vote anti, republicans should not vote anti

I know it was sarcasm, but my answer was not, they took their voting orders on HB1302 from Nick and Kathy.

44man · Jun 15, 2018

dblas said:
I know it was sarcasm, but my answer was not, they took their voting orders on HB1302 from Nick and Kathy.

And the whole bunch should be voted out for being traitors

ironpony · Jun 15, 2018

I had no idea that they are to follow orders and was under the impression they were to represent their citizens. I’ll be the idiot of the day.

And Thanks for your input Dan.

dblas · Jun 16, 2018

44man said:
And the whole bunch should be voted out for being traitors

I absolutely agree.

Hawkeye · Jun 16, 2018

dblas said:
There were 90 days, as there are every year.

Pardon me, I miscounted.

Most if not all Delegates concentrate on the bills before them in committee;

In the House, there were 1832 bills, if they were equally distributed among the 7 committees, that would be 262 (261.7) bills per committee.

In the Senate, there were 1269 bills, equally distributed there would be 181 bills per committee.

Given that they have 69 days to hear the bills and get them over to the other chamber, that works out to 4 bills per day for Delegates and 3 bills per day for Senators.

But that's only the bills in each committee. People here aren't lambasting just the committee members, they are lambasting each and every legislator, regardless of if they were on the committee for each bill or not, for voting on a bill that they may not have read. My point was that there are too many bills for each legislator to read them all before voting on them.

Let's take the House bills, then. If there were 1832 of them, and there are 69 days to get them passed before they have to cross over, that means that in order to have read every bill that they are voting on, then the entire House would have to read roughly 25 bills per day. I know I can't read and give good analysis to 25 bills per day, even if I have nothing else to do (like going in to session to actually cast the votes, listening to debate, meeting with constituents, going to committee meetings, etc).

Now I know realistically that the individual legislators rely on guidance from their leadership, which is developed out of readings in committee among other things. So if what you're saying above is that each committee member in the House only has 4 bills per day to read, then who's fault is it that the membership got told that this was a yes vote? I would point at the members of the committee that read it and the party leadership.

There is a LOT of bashing of the individual legislators in this thread for giving a yes vote to a bill that they may not have read. I do agree that in the end, each of them is responsible for the way that they cast their votes, but my point is that it is virtually impossible for them to have done what people here want, which is to read every single bill before they vote on it.

As a former staff member to a Delegate, I call BS, based on how it broken down described above, my Delegate had plenty of time to actually read the bills that came across his desk for his direct attention. In some cases, the staff (paid and volunteers) already had a head start on some of the bills in other committees for floor votes.

So you're saying that your delegate read every single bill that he (or she) ever cast a vote on the entire time he (or she) was in office? I find that tough to believe.

dblas · Jun 16, 2018

Hawkeye said:
Pardon me, I miscounted.

No problem.

Hawkeye said:
But that's only the bills in each committee. People here aren't lambasting just the committee members, they are lambasting each and every legislator, regardless of if they were on the committee for each bill or not, for voting on a bill that they may not have read. My point was that there are too many bills for each legislator to read them all before voting on them.

Let's take the House bills, then. If there were 1832 of them, and there are 69 days to get them passed before they have to cross over, that means that in order to have read every bill that they are voting on, then the entire House would have to read roughly 25 bills per day. I know I can't read and give good analysis to 25 bills per day, even if I have nothing else to do (like going in to session to actually cast the votes, listening to debate, meeting with constituents, going to committee meetings, etc).

You are assuming that all 1832 bills make it to the floor to be voted on, which they do not which makes your math a failure.

Further, you failed to quote me entirely leaving out the part I mentioned about those bills that pass out of committee for a floor vote. Here it is for a reminder;

"Then they concentrate on those bills that come out committee as favorable in that 69 days, so let's add 2 more per day for grins and giggles. If they cross over then the process starts all over again with bills in committee and then bills that need voted on, on the floor."

So, in the beginning the Delegates deal with an average of 6 bills per day in the first 69 days.

Hawkeye said:
Now I know realistically that the individual legislators rely on guidance from their leadership, which is developed out of readings in committee among other things. So if what you're saying above is that each committee member in the House only has 4 bills per day to read, then who's fault is it that the membership got told that this was a yes vote? I would point at the members of the committee that read it and the party leadership.

This would be correct, the respective committee members and leadership, but more towards leadership.

Hawkeye said:
There is a LOT of bashing of the individual legislators in this thread for giving a yes vote to a bill that they may not have read. I do agree that in the end, each of them is responsible for the way that they cast their votes, but my point is that it is virtually impossible for them to have done what people here want, which is to read every single bill before they vote on it.

Depends on the legislator and how driven they are, as well as their staff and how they support them.

Hawkeye said:
So you're saying that your delegate read every single bill that he (or she) ever cast a vote on the entire time he (or she) was in office? I find that tough to believe.

For every committee vote and every floor vote, he knew what was in the bill, what the bill was about, what amendments got made (and approved or disapproved), and on a fair amount of the votes, did not vote how leadership wanted him to. By the way, that Delegate was Mike Smigeil.

Engine4 · Jun 16, 2018

Having that many bills introduced in a session is absolutely rediculous. They ought to be repealing bills instead of dreaming up new ones.

Parttime · Jun 17, 2018

Is there one or two committees that handle most of the gun bills?

I see a lot of the gun bills are listed under "public safety" in the bill category lookup.

Allen65 · Jun 17, 2018

Parttime said:
I see a lot of the gun bills are listed under "public safety" in the bill category lookup.

They're supposed to go through Judiciary, but Vallario hasn't been too friendly to some of the crazier, grandstanding anti bills. So the sponsors have been introducing them into the Public Safety Committee, which is friendlier to the more extreme, virtue-signalling stuff. Exception was HB1302, but the Vice Chair, Dumais, pushed that one through Judiciary, and it doesn't seem Vallario had much involvement with it.

Parttime · Jun 17, 2018

Allen65 said:
They're supposed to go through Judiciary, but Vallario hasn't been too friendly to some of the crazier, grandstanding anti bills. So the sponsors have been introducing them into the Public Safety Committee, which is friendlier to the more extreme, virtue-signalling stuff. Exception was HB1302, but the Vice Chair, Dumais, pushed that one through Judiciary, and it doesn't seem Vallario had much involvement with it.

My point is; that the excuse of many bills to read is bogus. If I can find the gun bills through the index lookup, the senators and delegates can do the same or better.

Lying seems to be a trait that is not only, not excusable, but makes one wonder what else they don't tell you.

My vote will go to the challengers of the incumbents, in District 36.

dblas · Jun 17, 2018

Allen65 said:
They're supposed to go through Judiciary, but Vallario hasn't been too friendly to some of the crazier, grandstanding anti bills. So the sponsors have been introducing them into the Public Safety Committee, which is friendlier to the more extreme, virtue-signalling stuff. Exception was HB1302, but the Vice Chair, Dumais, pushed that one through Judiciary, and it doesn't seem Vallario had much involvement with it.

You are partially correct, in that the majority of firearms related bills go through the House Judiciary Committee on the House. You left out the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee on the Senate side.

Where you are incorrect is where the sponsor introduce them. The sponsors introduce them on the House or Senate floor and the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate, respectively, assign them to committee.

A further correction in that there is absolutely no "Public Safety" committee, and any and ALL bills dealing with public safety fall under the perview of the House Judiciary or Senate Judicial Procedings committees

dblas · Jun 17, 2018

Parttime said:
My point is; that the excuse of many bills to read is bogus. If I can find the gun bills through the index lookup, the senators and delegates can do the same or better.

Lying seems to be a trait that is not only, not excusable, but makes one wonder what else they don't tell you.

My vote will go to the challengers of the incumbents, in District 36.

So...not making excuses for anyone in Annapolis, but there have been time when a bill has come up for a floor vote (2nd reader) right out of committee and the Delegates or Senators do not have the most current bill language in front of them. Most of the time this has been due to a late night committee meeting and the 2nd reader being the next day, not giving legislative services enough time to get the full (corrected) version in front of the legislators. but the leadership (mike and Mike) have pushed for a floor vote over the objections of those that want the full version in front of them.

rseymorejr · Jun 17, 2018

dblas said:
So...not making excuses for anyone in Annapolis, but there have been time when a bill has come up for a floor vote (2nd reader) right out of committee and the Delegates or Senators do not have the most current bill language in front of them. Most of the time this has been due to a late night committee meeting and the 2nd reader being the next day, not giving legislative services enough time to get the full (corrected) version in front of the legislators. but the leadership (mike and Mike) have pushed for a floor vote over the objections of those that want the full version in front of them.

Any senator or delegate that votes, either way, on a bill that they have not read and understood completely the final version has no integrity.

Squaregrouper · Jun 17, 2018

squaregrouper said:
Why would someone vote in favor of a new law they didn't read?

rseymorejr said:
Any senator or delegate that votes, either way, on a bill that they have not read and understood completely the final version has no integrity.

Whats that phrase about great minds?

HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

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