want wife and kids to try shotgunning

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  • hammer67

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2016
    230
    Ellicott City
    short question:
    Anywhere local (I am member AGC) to try some 20 gauge youth shotguns? such as Mossberg 500 youth super bantam, weatherby SA-08, remington 11-87, browning BPS micro midas

    Long details:

    I want wife and kids to try some shotgun sports. wife shot sporting clays with me once about 20 years ago. I don't know what gun she used. Don't think it was one of mine as I only have 12's. I borrowed a friends remington 20 gauge 870 youth with 13" LOP and 21" barrel. Haven't tried it yet but have had them mount it to see how it fits. Wife and daughter can mount it fine and weight is OK. Son has trouble as his off hand is nearly straight to reach the fore end when mounted and he therefore has trouble supporting it. I took off the recoil pad to give 12" LOP and that is much better and he can support it and swing it. I am a little concerned that the pump action, even in 20, will kick too much for them. I was considering buying a semi-auto.
    Weatherby (SA-08), remington (11-87) or browning (silver hunter micro midas-$$) all have youth models. The Weatherby has 12.5" LOP and 24" barrel, The Remington has "adjustable" LOP and 21" barrel. I am not confident in answers from Remington what this means, but I think 13 min with 1" adjustment. The Browning has 13" LOP and 26" barrel (like the longer barrel). What I really considered was getting full size Weatherby or Remington (for the barrel length 26" or 28") and then buy the youth stock (less than $100) so that as the kids grow can put on original stock and will have a better gun long term with longer barrel. and I would have to cut the stock down for son, and perhaps rig up some kind of quick change system to add some length for wife and daughter, if the shorter length too small for them. But I would have some challenges in getting a gun. Here is their info:


    wife
    5' 4" about 130lb
    right handed
    right eye dominant

    daughter
    age: 14 (15 in 3 months)
    5' 5" about 115lb
    right handed
    left eye dominant

    son
    age: 12 1/2
    5' 3" about 90lb
    left handed
    left eye dominant

    you can see the issue given the handedness and eye dominance variations and small stature. If they could handle a pump, a bottom ejecting browning bps micro midas with 13" LOP and 24"or 26" barrel would be good choice. Mossberg 500 youth super bantam with adjustable LOP of 12"-13" and 22" barrel another option and they have a left handed model. given cheaper price could get 1 right and 1 left for about same as 1 BPS, but short barrel would be limiting as get older?

    But if can't handle pump, getting a semi-auto may be hard since I don't know if want any of them shooting one off-handed and possibly getting hit with hot gas, powder residue or spent hulls and turning them off to shooting. and price would make it hard to get 2!
     

    JoeRinMD

    Rifleman
    Jul 18, 2008
    2,014
    AA County
    Are you looking to rent a shotgun for them to try out at various shotgun games, or are you looking for a retail store where they can see which gun would fit best for purchase? If you'd like to rent one, PG Trap in Greenbelt has Beretta shotguns in 20 gauge that you can rent for a nominal fee. They have almost all types of shotgun games, from trap and skeet to sporting clays and FITASC where your wife and kids could shoot the gun and get a better sense of how it fits them.

    JoeR
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I too was going to suggest PG Trap and Skeet. Again, they only rent Beretta, but it's worth using those to see if they're even truly interested in the sport before getting into what brand is best along with fit.
     

    parttimer

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 10, 2013
    1,321
    Calvert
    Check out the Benelli M2 field shotgun. I got to fire the 20 gauge version of this gun last year and it kicked like a .22 and was super lightweight. It is not a budget recommendation by any means but if I wanted to get someone that was recoil and weight sensitive into shooting this would be at the top of my list.
    As far as eye dominance issues that should not be a big concern. When shooting clays you should be shooting with both eyes open (I struggle with keeping both open when shooting clays). A semi auto wil take a lot of frustration out of shooting for newer shooters when shooting doubles.
     

    Sundazes

    My brain hurts
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 13, 2006
    21,295
    Arkham
    Our troop has kids from 10 to 17 years old. We take them trap shooting (at a camp) a few times a year. You can never tell by size who will want what gauge. Some of the bigger kids prefer 410, some prefer the 20 or 12. Point is the you can't predict from their size. I would start them with the 20 and go from there. Proper stance and fit will go along way in tolerating the recoil. Also, the kids will not be little for long. Keep that in mind as well.
     

    DanJo

    Active Member
    Mar 4, 2010
    290
    Western Howard County
    The Howard County 4-H Bullseye Club has youth shotgun practice every other Sunday afternoon at AGC Trap Field #1. In the warmer months we mix in rounds of skeet and sporting clays at PG Trap & Skeet to fill in the off Sundays. The club has trained instructors who teach safety and shooting skills. The club provides guns and shells for practice. See the Howard County 4-H website for details.
     

    Redcobra

    Senior Shooter
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 10, 2010
    6,422
    Near the Chesapeake Bay
    Loch Raven Skeet and Trap Center rents 20 gauge semis. (Beretta) And they give family lessons.
    http://www.lochravenskeettrap.com/youthcamp.php

    Don't know of any place that rents pumps.

    AS Danjo mentioned, I am sure there are clubs at the AGC that have youth shotgun activities. When I was a Trapper at AGC, we used to give instruction to newbies whenever they showed up during public trap times. Suspect that is still the case.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    One thing to remember is that starting them out on a smaller gauge can make it far more frustrating. With 20s, 28s, .410s there's a lot fewer pellets to break targets with. Sure, training wise it's great, but just getting started, it can be a downer if you don't hit anything. Most of the semi-auto berettas they rent at PG soak up the recoil with very little being transferred to the shooter even firing 12ga rounds.
     

    hammer67

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2016
    230
    Ellicott City
    Thanks for all the advice. At this time I want them to try it before I buy anything.

    Regarding PG trap and skeet, I have read about it but never been there. Of note, they have min barrel length 23" so that was a reason I was hesitant to get a gun with short barrel (assuming they like shooting clays). called them and they have some 13" LOP, but o/u. have A391 semi, but they are "about" 14" LOP. $15 rental for the day.

    The Howard County 4H is great lead.

    sundazes, what troop are you with and where do you shoot? My son is in 874 (Glen Mar UMC) and I am the troops RSO. We shoot 22 rifle at Braodcreek. We have not shot shotgun as don't have anyone instructor trained for that, but I have been trying to arrange the training.

    message sent to Lock Raven skeet trap to see what guns they have. They have youth instruction 2nd wednesday of month. $40 for 2 hours including ammo, targets and gun.

    regarding the eye dominance, keeping both eyes open is what causes the problem with shotgun. So my daughter prefers to shoot right handed. when shooting rifle she closes her left dominant eye. but if she keeps that left eye open to shoot shotgun, she will not be pointing the gun where she thinks she is pointing it since her right eye will be lined up with barrel, but her dominant left eye will be looking at the tip of barrel at an angle. try this with your finger: with both eyes open point at an object. keep finger still and close your left eye. did your finger move? now open that eye and close your right eye? finger move? It will move when you close your dominant eye. So you can see you can have two "aim points" one that is correct and one that is not correct, if that makes sense? when I hold a shotgun (right handed) and point it at an object, I actually see 2 images of the barrel. they are not pointing at same place. my brain overrides the second image from non-dominant left eye and lets the image from my right eye, which is in alignment with barrel, take over. So if my daughter (left eye dominant) mounts right handed and aims, her brain will use the image from her left eye and that is not the aim point where the barrel is actually aimed at. I think she will miss low and right every time.
     

    sxs

    Senior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2009
    3,377
    Anne Arundel County, MD
    FYI, a lot of clubs have minimum barrel lengths. It's a reason to consider getting an adult shotgun in, perhaps, 20 ga, and adding a youth stock (if you can find one) or a cut stock with a recoil pad with the LOP reduced. Whne I first bought my son his Mossberg Super Bantam (it allows a 12" or 13" length of pull with a spacer), it seemed like a good choice. 2 years later Stoney Creek implemented a 26" minimum! Not too big a deal. He was well into his teens and approaching adult size, so I just found an adult length (28") field barrel that would be sufficient for most hunting he might do as well as OK for clays. And frankly, he shot the gun with that barrel better than the short barrel presumably because he had more barrel weight extended out to help him with his swing. We did keep the short barrel because someday he may want it for Turkeys or perhaps for home defense or other purpose. Oh, yeah, when he was about 16 or 17, I bought an adult butt stock for $25 from a gun show as he was essentially grown and began to complain that it was too short. There is also an adult fore end available, but the youth fore end just extends back a bit more than an adult one and it is not in his way so I didn't replace it. Back when I bought the gun, Mossberg had a 'special offer' on the super Bantam to purchase an adult stock within 5 years at 1/2 price directly from Mossberg. But that would have been more expensive than just finding a deal elsewhere, especially give we just kept the old fore end. I even later added a cantilever rifled barrel with a scope for deer hunting although the deer hunting he has done to date is with a rifle.

    I would not go 410 or 28 ga. Shells are far less available and they are really best suited for proficient shooters challenging themselves at clays. A 410 especially limits your range even when trying to keep your patterns tight with a full choke due to the far smaller number of pellets in a shell. There is a class of shooting in skeet particularly for 410, but you are only playing at Trap if you try to shoot it with a 410. However, a 20 ga works pretty well at ATA type trap and can be used to hunt pretty much anything....even waterfowl (especially over decoy spreads within reasonable distance - I have known a few who hunt waterfowl with 3" 20 ga). The 20 ga for me is an upland favorite (although I also hunt with 12 and even 16 at times).

    Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 have widespread parts availability and many even sell their takeoff parts. Often if a synthetic youth butt stock is hard to find, you can buy a wood stock pretty cheap, cut it, and install a recoil pad. One possibility for multiple shooters is to pad the stock to the shortest length you need then add a slip over to lengthen it a bit for another shooter. The biggest downside of those firearms is they will likely break down much sooner under the stress of 10s of thousands of fired rounds that a serious shooter may make in just a relative few years. However, they should be sufficient for getting their feet wet and shooting a few hundred or a few thousand rounds....or even more before showing issues (and, as mentioned, parts are readily available for repair).

    Tape over one lens of shooter glasses can sometimes help a shooter shoot with a dominate hand that differs from the dominate eye (cross dominance) or perhaps the shooter can close the dominant eye. Preferred method is to try to teach the shooter to shoot with the orientation that positions the dominant eye looking down the barrel

    Good luck on your search
     

    Hunterjjd

    Active Member
    Jun 29, 2011
    118
    I have 1100 and 1187 12 ga
    I have 1100 and 1187 20
    I have 12 and 20 ga 870
    I think I have a 20 ga light weight 870. It has a different stock
    I have 870 and think Mossberg 410

    I have manual and automatic clay thrower. You buy clay and shells (I would offer test shells for everything but I am in the middle of moving and all my ammo is boxed up) I also have place to shoot either clay or cans (as mentioned before skunked beer, soda or anything like that is WONDERFUL target)

    You let me know and I will try to make it happen when you want to play. I don't mean to sound like I think your are stupid, I don't know your level of things but cheapest shells should be fine and LOW brass is a much. Not sure if you can for 410 but try. Smallest shot size wal mart has is fine, higher the # smaller the shot.

    I am willing to pick up some test shells at your expense if you would like. I will need to buy some for my family also to play with yours.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    regarding the eye dominance, keeping both eyes open is what causes the problem with shotgun. So my daughter prefers to shoot right handed. when shooting rifle she closes her left dominant eye. but if she keeps that left eye open to shoot shotgun, she will not be pointing the gun where she thinks she is pointing it since her right eye will be lined up with barrel, but her dominant left eye will be looking at the tip of barrel at an angle. try this with your finger: with both eyes open point at an object. keep finger still and close your left eye. did your finger move? now open that eye and close your right eye? finger move? It will move when you close your dominant eye. So you can see you can have two "aim points" one that is correct and one that is not correct, if that makes sense? when I hold a shotgun (right handed) and point it at an object, I actually see 2 images of the barrel. they are not pointing at same place. my brain overrides the second image from non-dominant left eye and lets the image from my right eye, which is in alignment with barrel, take over. So if my daughter (left eye dominant) mounts right handed and aims, her brain will use the image from her left eye and that is not the aim point where the barrel is actually aimed at. I think she will miss low and right every time.

    Magic Dot or scotch tape.

    A frosted area on the off side lenses will take the dominant eye out of the equation, but allow it to be used for peripheral vision.

    For temporary, when I instructed, I always carried a chap stick. A dab will work fine. Or, stop by the drug store and get an eye patch. Not very stylish, but works well.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    A 12 should not be out of the running. With 1 ounce light loads, they recoil the same as a 20 ga. And the shotgun weighs a bit more, so less perceived recoil.

    Stick with semi-auto for light recoil.

    My teaching gun was a Rem 11-87 Sporting Clays, and Fiocchi 12TL 1 ounce loads. Everyone could shoot that thing.

    I agree than 28 or 410 might just be frustrating to a new shooter.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    A 12 should not be out of the running. With 1 ounce light loads, they recoil the same as a 20 ga. And the shotgun weighs a bit more, so less perceived recoil.

    Stick with semi-auto for light recoil.

    My teaching gun was a Rem 11-87 Sporting Clays, and Fiocchi 12TL 1 ounce loads. Everyone could shoot that thing.

    I agree than 28 or 410 might just be frustrating to a new shooter.

    A new shooter is barely going to hit crap anyway. Let them start with a .410 just to practice gun mount, gun swing, pulling the trigger, and getting used to recoil. At last year's New Year's Day shoot at CCGC, my then 7 year old son shot my Beretta 391 20 gauge youth gun 5 times. He hit one clay, but he stopped after 5 shots not because he missed 4, but because the recoil was too much for him.

    I screwed everything up with him this September when I allowed him to pull the trigger on my 12 gauge Benelli while I was holding it. He was on my left side, but he is left eye dominant. He put his cheek down on the stock so hard so he could get his left eye to line up with the bead and he pulled the trigger before I could tell him NO!!!!!! The gun hit him pretty hard and now he does not even want to try shooting the .410 I borrowed from my dad, that I grew up shooting at his age.

    Beginners at the clay games are going to be frustrated, especially if they never shot before.

    Here he is New Year's Day 2017:

    Now that I look at the pic, he was actually shooting the adult size 391 Teknys in 20 gauge. Memory says that I forgot the 20 gauge youth gun at home.
     

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    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Magic Dot or scotch tape.

    A frosted area on the off side lenses will take the dominant eye out of the equation, but allow it to be used for peripheral vision.

    For temporary, when I instructed, I always carried a chap stick. A dab will work fine. Or, stop by the drug store and get an eye patch. Not very stylish, but works well.

    I'm going to get a pair of shooting glasses for my son and paint the right side black. He needs it just to shoot the pellet gun for now. Noticed a huge difference on how he shoots when I cover his right eye (i.e., he cannot wink) and he mounts the gun on his left shoulder.

    Eye dominance and shoulder mount is key.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    OP - I have a Beretta 391 20 gauge youth model that should work for you pretty good. You don't live too far from me if you are in Ellicott City. They will allow you to shoot it both at PG Trap & Skeet and Carroll County Gun Club up by route 26 and route 97. My busy season is starting up, but I might actually shoot this Saturday at PG. Just not certain about that yet. Anyway, if you would like to coordinate schedules one weekend for CCGC or PG, I would be more than happy to meet you and let your wife, son, and daughter shoot that 20 gauge youth model.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,343
    I like the 12 gauge and light loads too.

    Taking a bunch of greenhorns to a sporting clay course without any previous clay shooting experience is going to be rough unless you spend a lot of your targets at an easy station.

    Id at least talk to a friend with a big backyard to setup a thrower and throw the same target over and over while standing in the same spot to see if they even have fun with that
     

    hammer67

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2016
    230
    Ellicott City
    after previous private email with another shooter I thought about a 12 with light load. I found these

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...-lite-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-7-8-oz-8-shot

    and turns out I just went to my parents house and since my father passed away about a year ago, I took the guns that he had given me years ago but were still at their house. one is a winchester model 1400 12 gauge semi-auto with fixed mod choke. As is it has a 14" LOP. I took off the recoil pad and had my daughter try it. It was about 13" LOP, which worked for her in the 870 express youth. But that gun is 6lb and the winchester is 8lb, which was a little heavy for her. I was thinking I could cut down the stock and put a new recoil pad and give it a try with the lite ammo. I think my kids need to strengthen up some!
     

    Mack C-85

    R.I.P.
    Jan 22, 2014
    6,522
    Littlestown, PA
    I think my kids need to strengthen up some!

    After working with kids of all shapes and sizes in Scouts, the light bulb finally came on that age really is just a number, and sometimes you just have to let 'em grow up!!! I've seen 13-14 year olds that weren't physically big enough to handle a shotgun, and 9-10 year olds that could shoot anything all day. If they can't handle a 20 or even a light loaded 12, let 'em grow up, don't punish them with an ill-fitting gun or unnecessarily frustrate them with small shot loads. Get 'em shooting with a .22 rifle to keep 'em interested until they physically mature.
     

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