Does HK MP5A3 Collapsible Stock Meet Minimum 29" OAL Requirement?

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Its a shame you guys did not get POs for these guns PreFSA2013. I still have about 15 that would cover this problem...
    Not going to help on a form 1, which is 99% of these pistol conversions are.
     

    md_al

    Active Member
    Apr 25, 2014
    724
    Middle River
    Duffy's has the Gemtech GM9 which is a monocore. The sleeve can be removed for cleaning the baffles. Another option is to roll you own suppressor so that the far end is removable. Weber has a thread on the $100 suppressor. :)
     

    rtruhn

    Active Member
    Sep 12, 2013
    563
    Gwynn Oak
    . Another option is to roll you own suppressor so that the far end is removable. Weber has a thread on the $100 suppressor. :)

    I'd love to make my own - and also build out 80% stuff. Not everyone has the mechanical ability, though. I can barely field-strip my firearms. I often wonder at the legality of getting "hands-on assistance" on such projects.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Not sure who says a stock extension or buttpad is a no, no, for OAL but they are wrong unless ATF or MSP has made a recent decision.

    Permament Muzzle Devices count for OAL, but the stock does not have to be pinned open. A longer PAD would count if it screws on to the stock. If the gun is an SBR, then a Q.D. Stock is ok from my understanding.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    Not sure who says a stock extension or buttpad is a no, no, for OAL but they are wrong unless ATF or MSP has made a recent decision.
    Permament Muzzle Devices count for OAL, but the stock does not have to be pinned open. A longer PAD would count if it screws on to the stock. If the gun is an SBR, then a Q.D. Stock is ok from my understanding.

    I don't want to permanently modify the gun itself or pin anything onto the barrel (I wanna be able to screw on a Ti-Rant sometimes), but do you know how an HK "F" collapsible stock can be made sufficiently long with the application of pads, extensions or what-have-you to meet Maryland's 29" OAL SBR requirement for a Zenith Z-5SR (MP5)? Or, if I'm misreading your comments, is there a foldable stock that could be made to work (without modifying the gun)?
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    I don't want to permanently modify the gun itself or pin anything onto the barrel (I wanna be able to screw on a Ti-Rant sometimes), but do you know how an HK "F" collapsible stock can be made sufficiently long with the application of pads, extensions or what-have-you to meet Maryland's 29" OAL SBR requirement for a Zenith Z-5SR (MP5)? Or, if I'm misreading your comments, is there a foldable stock that could be made to work (without modifying the gun)?

    I though someone said that recoil pad extensions that are glued, screwed, bolted on dont count. That is wrong unless MSP or ATF have changed something recently.

    You cant do a side folder with a Flash Hider or Suppressor if you select s side folder. Thats 2 features.

    Best bet is to stay with the HK Collapsible and add a pad thats attached with screws or glued in place

    You could also get a VLTOR A5 Receiver Extension and AR Stock Adaptor and a long Stock like a Magpul ACS with ENhanced Pad or VLTOR Stock.

    If you dont want to permanently add a Flash Hider or Q.D. Mount, then adding length to the pad is the only sound option. Adding notches to the stock may work too but I wouldnt fire the weapon that way as it wont be as solid/stable.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    I though someone said that recoil pad extensions that are glued, screwed, bolted on dont count. That is wrong unless MSP or ATF have changed something recently.
    You cant do a side folder with a Flash Hider or Suppressor if you select s side folder. Thats 2 features.
    Best bet is to stay with the HK Collapsible and add a pad thats attached with screws or glued in place
    You could also get a VLTOR A5 Receiver Extension and AR Stock Adaptor and a long Stock like a Magpul ACS with ENhanced Pad or VLTOR Stock.
    If you dont want to permanently add a Flash Hider or Q.D. Mount, then adding length to the pad is the only sound option. Adding notches to the stock may work too but I wouldnt fire the weapon that way as it wont be as solid/stable.

    If I understand you correctly, on an MP5 that I'll be using with a [removable] Ti-Rant 9 silencer, I can SBR it with a collapsible HK "F" stock if I permanently (with screws or permanent cement) affix a pad to the end of the stock? Does that sound Kosher (MD legal)?
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    If I understand you correctly, on an MP5 that I'll be using with a [removable] Ti-Rant 9 silencer, I can SBR it with a collapsible HK "F" stock if I permanently (with screws or permanent cement) affix a pad to the end of the stock? Does that sound Kosher (MD legal)?

    Thats how I would do it if I wanted a MP5 and wanted to stay close to the original lines.

    The HK9X Series Rifles (Pushpin Removal) and AR15 Series Collapsibe Stocks (Pull down the Adjustment Tab and remove) are unique because they can be removed without tools. If a pad added to the stocks does count for the OAL per ATF guidelines. MSP has repeatedly stated that they use the ATF standard for measuring OAL>

    I would not count a slip on type pad as the OAL as its not really part of the gun.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    Staring at my F stock, while I think it would be stable if you added a notch (it hasn't pulled through the housing fully yet) there would no need to do so. If it were me, I'd weld little 3/4" leg extensions on vs affixing a 3/4" buttpad. (because I have a welder and could do it.) Would look almost stock:lol2: just wouldn't collapse as far. OAL collapsed will be a bit longer anyway no matter how you do it.

    You gotten the tirant 3-lug adapter yet? AAC hasn't had them in stock in FOREVER. Darn "damn the man" rebates are worthless:(
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    Thats how I would do it if I wanted a MP5 and wanted to stay close to the original lines.
    The HK9X Series Rifles (Pushpin Removal) and AR15 Series Collapsibe Stocks (Pull down the Adjustment Tab and remove) are unique because they can be removed without tools. If a pad added to the stocks does count for the OAL per ATF guidelines. MSP has repeatedly stated that they use the ATF standard for measuring OAL>
    I would not count a slip on type pad as the OAL as its not really part of the gun.

    Very helpful. Thank you!
     

    fred333

    Banned
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    Dec 20, 2013
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    Staring at my F stock, while I think it would be stable if you added a notch (it hasn't pulled through the housing fully yet) there would no need to do so. If it were me, I'd weld little 3/4" leg extensions on vs affixing a 3/4" buttpad. (because I have a welder and could do it.) Would look almost stock:lol2: just wouldn't collapse as far. OAL collapsed will be a bit longer anyway no matter how you do it.

    Just so I'm clear, do you mean welding an additional 3/4" of rod to the two metal rods that extend/collapse the stock into the frame? That sounds like a brilliant solution that the FFL outta be able to do without much ado. I wonder why they didn't think of that??


    You gotten the tirant 3-lug adapter yet? AAC hasn't had them in stock in FOREVER. Darn "damn the man" rebates are worthless:(

    The Ti-Rant's actually for my home defense gun (92F) and between that and the out of stock issues you've already cited, the plan (today) is to leave it as a simple screw-on affair.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Just so I'm clear, do you mean welding an additional 3/4" of rod to the two metal rods that extend/collapse the stock into the frame? That sounds like a brilliant solution that the FFL outta be able to do without much ado. I wonder why they didn't think of that??




    The Ti-Rant's actually for my home defense gun (92F) and between that and the out of stock issues you've already cited, the plan (today) is to leave it as a simple screw-on affair.

    You might want to see some examples of the smith welding before you allow them to possibly trash a $400.00 stock.

    It sounds easy, but to make it look professional, and refinish where it discolors the rails is easier said than done. Outside repilutable HK Gunsmiths that specialize in HK's, this is not something to throw at Joe Gunsmith. .
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    Just so I'm clear, do you mean welding an additional 3/4" of rod to the two metal rods that extend/collapse the stock into the frame?
    Yes. You could weld directly to the end, but it will be a little simpler IMO to section it in the middle somewhere and extend it there due to how the ends are shaped. But either can be made to work. Maybe you need to find a more creative FFL:innocent0

    The Ti-Rant's actually for my home defense gun (92F) and between that and the out of stock issues you've already cited, the plan (today) is to leave it as a simple screw-on affair.

    Simple screw on isn't actually so simple;) First of all three lug is badass - once you use it you'll likely agree.:D Second, you can't just unscrew the Ti9 from your 92F and screw it on a the MP5. You have to swap pistons for the different thread pitches and put in the fixed barrel spacer too. While you have the endcap off to do all that stuff, why not just screw on the 3-lug adapter instead?

    You might want to see some examples of the smith welding before you allow them to possibly trash a $400.00 stock.
    I wouldn't cut up a real HK stock. The knockoff one by ATI is VERY good and just a little over $100 (plus counts as a 922r part). You are right in that one would probably want to find more of a fabricator/welder vs a 'gunsmith'.

    Edit: I double checked and looks like the ATI stock is also imported so doesn't help w/ 922r.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    You might want to see some examples of the smith welding before you allow them to possibly trash a $400.00 stock.
    It sounds easy, but to make it look professional, and refinish where it discolors the rails is easier said than done. Outside repilutable HK Gunsmiths that specialize in HK's, this is not something to throw at Joe Gunsmith. .

    Agreed and noted.:thumbsup:
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
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    Yes. You could weld directly to the end, but it will be a little simpler IMO to section it in the middle somewhere and extend it there due to how the ends are shaped. But either can be made to work. Maybe you need to find a more creative FFL:innocent0

    FFL is Engage and they aren't generally known for missing the obvious. But, then, from my conversations on the subject, they haven't had many other MD Zenith Z5RS customers.:)



    Simple screw on isn't actually so simple;) First of all three lug is badass - once you use it you'll likely agree.:D Second, you can't just unscrew the Ti9 from your 92F and screw it on a the MP5. You have to swap pistons for the different thread pitches and put in the fixed barrel spacer too. While you have the endcap off to do all that stuff, why not just screw on the 3-lug adapter instead?

    Good point. I'll look into it.


    I wouldn't cut up a real HK stock. The knockoff one by ATI is VERY good and just a little over $100 (plus counts as a 922r part). You are right in that one would probably want to find more of a fabricator/welder vs a 'gunsmith'.
    Edit: I double checked and looks like the ATI stock is also imported so doesn't help w/ 922r.

    For this, I agree a [credible] knockoff is the way to go. Once I get outta this unconstitutional state, I'll invest in the HK stock. I can't find a link to a collapsible ATI stock. Have you got a link?
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/MP5-F-A3-Universal-Retractable-Stock-ON-SALE-83p2621.htm

    Here is one for $134. For HK parts, hkparts typ has the widest selection but are most proud of what they have to offer;) RobertRTG, hkspecialiststore, and... ugh another one Im forgetting... The latter ones are usually cheaper than hkparts. hkpro is a good forum too - can look at their classifieds. I might have bought one of mine from CDNN too. Just google ATI MP5 stock and I'm sure there will be tons of hits.

    Edit: just to poke the bear a little for fun - most of the FFLs here haven't figured out how to SBR a <8" BBL AR15 and keep over the MD 29" limit either;) Standard answer is that VLTOR buffer tube IIRC for a ~10 bbl? You can get WAY longer than that.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
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    smdub: Got it. Thanks. I was looking all over ATI's website and never thought to check hkparts:whack:. I learn something new (that I should'a already known) every day.
    I see hkparts's also got a four-position stock for <$200, which, depending on the additional length needed to meet the 29" OAL nonsense, might not be a bad option.

    I'll run this by the Engage guys and if they can work out the extension, I'll get started on the Form 1 paperwork. Thank you!:)
     

    schnejerator

    dabbled in pacifism once
    Sep 26, 2014
    116
    haggistucky
    This is obviously the shorter A3 stock, and I'm not 100% sure on muzzle location (it's a pinned faux suppressor over a 3-lug and threads), but this lands around 25.5" OAL.

    20150924_190720_1.jpg


    Anyone know what the F model stock adds?
     
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