HBAR vs. govt profile rules

shadow116 · May 14, 2020

John from MD said:
The burden of proof is on the State not the accused.

Actually the burden on your wallet. If it is not deep, your chances are slim.

kalister1 · May 14, 2020

shadow116 said:
Actually the burden on your wallet. If it is not deep, your chances are slim.

This is true!
Our legal system is: Whoever has the most money wins.

Mark75H · May 14, 2020

kalister1 said:
So it is not a crime to buy stolen material? If you commit a crime by by buying stolen material is it legal to own it?

Illegal sale is not the same thing as theft. The sale remains the crime, not the possession.

kalister1 · May 14, 2020

Mark75H said:
Illegal sale is not the same thing as theft. The sale remains the crime, not the possession.

So if you bought something that was illegal to sell you can keep it? Fences that buy stolen property did not commit a crime?
Please define PURCHASE.

https://lawcenter.giffords.org/large-capacity-magazines-in-maryland/

Last updated November 15, 2019.

In Maryland, no person may manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Art3 · May 14, 2020

Definitely don't steal a pencil barrel upper and put it on your Hbar! :nono:

kalister1 · May 14, 2020

Art3 said:
Definitely don't steal a pencil barrel upper and put it on your Hbar!

That is good advise

RoadDawg · May 15, 2020

erwos said:
From a strict legal perspective, what you're saying is not correct with his case. He purchased it as a complete HBAR rifle. If that gun stayed in HBAR config the entire time, it never became a copy of an enumerated weapon, and could not be turned into one now.

Realistically, the MSP could never prove it either way, but then again, if they charged you, YOU would be the one to have to prove it in court, since they'd be starting with "we found you with a banned gun". Food for thought.

It was legal for him to change the barrel between the time he purchased it and 10/01/13.

No one can prove he didn’t. And the state isn’t going to try.

RoadDawg · May 15, 2020

Art3 said:
I agree with danb's assessment. Sometime between the sunset of the Clinton ban and before 2013, I was AR shopping. There were two carbines on a table at a gun show that were identical, except for the little barrel cutout...same price too. The vendor said, "This one you can walk out with today. That one requires pistol paperwork and you can pick it up in a week." I walked out with one that day. It was 4473'ed but not 77r'ed. Somewhere this forum told me that I couldn't put a non-Hbar barrel on it because it was not 77r'ed.

The extra stupid part of my story is that it is a Bushmaster...so it's already labelled (erroneously or not) as an "assault long gun" on the naughty list. It seems silly that I can't put an upper that would make my "assault long gun" into an "assault long gun" onto my "assault long gun"...but MD . Can't have a "double assault long gun," I guess.

AIRI...

Buying it as a HBAR - no 77r needed.

But... it was legal to remove the HBAR and attach a Gov profile upper.

But if you did attach the Gov profile upper... and offer it for sale in that configuration... THEN it had to be transferred with the 77r.

It was not illegal to swap the uppers back and forth between HBAR and Gov profile on a rifle that you owned.

Vile Shadow · May 15, 2020

John from MD said:
The burden of proof is on the State not the accused.

In a honest system youd be right... but that comes down to the politics of the judge

esqappellate · May 15, 2020

kalister1 said:
Is not the LOWER itself the GUN? Were non H-Bar rifles for sale in Maryland before they became Regulated Rifles?

Yes, the lower receiver is the gun, but a receiver itself is not an assault long gun, as it can be built into a SBR or a HBAR, neither of which is an assault long gun. Recall that the statute bans possession of an assault long gun, it does not ban possession of a SBR (separately regulated by the NFA and state law) or possession of a HBAR (which is still a cash and carry, non-regulated firearm).

kalister1 · May 15, 2020

esqappellate said:
Yes, the lower receiver is the gun, but a receiver itself is not an assault long gun, as it can be built into a SBR or a HBAR, neither of which is an assault long gun. Recall that the statute bans possession of an assault long gun, it does not ban possession of a SBR (separately regulated by the NFA and state law) or possession of a HBAR (which is still a cash and carry, non-regulated firearm).

When did the Assault Rifle list come out? Were AR15 Rifles for sale in Maryland prior to the assault weapon list? If a H-BAr rifle was purchased prior to the assault rifle list ,could it be converted prior to the assault rifle list?

esqappellate · May 15, 2020

RoadDawg said:
It was legal for him to change the barrel between the time he purchased it and 10/01/13.

No one can prove he didn’t. And the state isn’t going to try.

So, I hope he retains competent legal counsel before he is interrogated by the gun unit of the MSP. Most people will incriminate themselves. Happens all the time.

esqappellate · May 15, 2020

kalister1 said:
When did the Assault Rifle list come out? Were AR15 Rifles for sale in Maryland prior to the assault weapon list? If a H-BAr rifle was purchased prior to the assault rifle list ,could it be converted prior to the assault rifle list?

The list came out in 1996. And yes, prior to Oct. 1, 2013, you could convert a HBAR into a non-HBAR and possess it (but not sell it without going through the 77R process). But not anymore, as you would come into possession of an assault long gun after 10/1/13

kalister1 · May 15, 2020

esqappellate said:
The list came out in 1996. And yes, prior to Oct. 1, 2013, you could convert a HBAR into a non-HBAR and possess it (but not sell it). But not anymore, as you would come into possession of an assault long gun after 10/1/13

OK, So you are saying it all depends on when. I git it now.

Pinecone · May 15, 2020

outrider58 said:
No one's arguing whether you can build out a pre ban "lower". The argument is whether you can build a pre ban H-BAR RIFLE into a pre ban configuration. My opinion(and I have a lot of respect for erwos's opinions), the argument is bunk. You can put any upper on a pre ban lower(gun) you want, whenever you want.

Exactly.

The question would be, was there any law or legal interpretation that putting a gov barrel upper on a rifle purchased as HBAR was not allowed.

And I don't recall it ever being a question. So likely it was never addressed.

danb · May 15, 2020

This MDSP advisory says its ok to built a lower purchased prior to Oct 1, 2013 into an assault long gun.

Now, if you can build a lower purchased prior to Oct 2013 into an assault long gun, putting an upper on a pre-Oct-2013 lower seems to me to be the same thing.

esqappellate · May 15, 2020

danb said:
This MDSP advisory says its ok to built a lower purchased prior to Oct 1, 2013 into an assault long gun.

Now, if you can build a lower purchased prior to Oct 2013 into an assault long gun, putting an upper on a pre-Oct-2013 lower seems to me to be the same thing.

Yes, But. The Advisory leaves open the question of whether a fully assembled NON-regulated HBAR purchased before Oct 1, 2013 can be converted into a regulated firearm NON HBAR assault weapon after Oct. 1, 2013. My guess would be "no" because an assault weapon (regulated firearm under 5-101) AND the .223/5.56 receiver (alone) purchased prior to Oct. 1 2013 would have gone through the 77R process at that time and an HBAR (or a AR10) would not have gone through that process. AGain, no guidance and no case law. So, feel free to roll the dice. YMMV

kalister1 · May 15, 2020

esqappellate said:
Yes. And it is leaves open the question of whether a fully assembled NON-regulated HBAR purchased before Oct 1, 2013 can be converted into a regulated firearm NON HBAR assault weapon after Oct. 1, 2013. My guess would be "no" because the .223/5.56 receiver (alone) purchased prior to Oct. 1 2013 would have gone through the 77R process at that time and an AR10 would not have gone through that process. YMMV

You can build a 80% handgun into a Pistol without the 77r Document being processed. So how much weight does the 77r(E) carry?

esqappellate · May 15, 2020

kalister1 said:
You can build a 80% handgun into a Pistol without the 77r Document being processed. So how much weight does the 77r(E) carry?

A 80% lower is not a receiver, so it is not a firearm. Guns built using 80% lowers are scary "ghost guns."

danb · May 15, 2020

esqappellate said:
Yes, But. The Advisory leaves open the question of whether a fully assembled NON-regulated HBAR purchased before Oct 1, 2013 can be converted into a regulated firearm NON HBAR assault weapon after Oct. 1, 2013. My guess would be "no" because an assault weapon (regulated firearm under 5-101) AND the .223/5.56 receiver (alone) purchased prior to Oct. 1 2013 would have gone through the 77R process at that time and an HBAR (or a AR10) would not have gone through that process. AGain, no guidance and no case law. So, feel free to roll the dice. YMMV

My guess is that we will never really know until someone volunteers 5 or 6 figures from their bank account and a few years of their time to go in front of an appellate court, as a test case.

"not me" aka BGOS

HBAR vs. govt profile rules

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