Just an exercise to show the issues with MD's carry laws.

montoya32 · Jan 26, 2016

Just had an idea. I would like to see someone's "typical" daily travels with places visited to see what a "typical" citizen carrying would encounter. I am going to lay out a hypothetical daily route to see how many people can figure out the necessary steps to stay legal with a business issued permit(since these seem to be the most popular).

1. Drop of kids at school(stay in car).

2. Get coffee at local store.

3. Go to work (office).

4. Drop off check/cash at bank.

5. Go to lunch at food court in local mall.

6. Go back to office.

7. Go to post office to purchase a money order for business purposes.

8. Go to county dept of planning and zoning for info on a customer's property.

9. Back to office.

10. Attend local business happy hour at local establishment.

11. Attend board of commerce meeting at local library.

12. Pick up child from private pre-school held in local church.

13. Attend HPRB meeting

What would be the legal duty of an individual while carrying?

pwoolford · Jan 26, 2016

Depends...do you have your DC letter?

montoya32 · Jan 26, 2016

pwoolford said:
Depends...do you have your DC letter?

?

Bikebreath · Jan 26, 2016

I'll take a shot.

1. Drop of kids at school(stay in car). Probably can't have it on school property.

2. Get coffee at local store. Sure

3. Go to work (office). Sure

4. Drop off check/cash at bank. Sure

5. Go to lunch at food court in local mall. Sure

6. Go back to office. Sure

7. Go to post office to purchase a money order for business purposes. No way.

8. Go to county dept of planning and zoning for info on a customer's property. No way.

9. Back to office. Sure

10. Attend local business happy hour at local establishment. No way.

11. Attend board of commerce meeting at local library. Not sure on this one, but go ahead and chance it.

12. Pick up child from private pre-school held in local church. Churches are off limits for firearms.

13. Attend HPRB meeting. Fat chance with carrying there.

protegeV · Jan 26, 2016

montoya32 said:
?

Designated collector

montoya32 · Jan 26, 2016

Bikebreath said:
I'll take a shot.

1. Drop of kids at school(stay in car). Probably can't have it on school property.

2. Get coffee at local store. Sure

3. Go to work (office). Sure

4. Drop off check/cash at bank. Sure

5. Go to lunch at food court in local mall. Sure

6. Go back to office. Sure

7. Go to post office to purchase a money order for business purposes. No way.

8. Go to county dept of planning and zoning for info on a customer's property. No way.

9. Back to office. Sure

10. Attend local business happy hour at local establishment. No way.

11. Attend board of commerce meeting at local library. Not sure on this one, but go ahead and chance it.

12. Pick up child from private pre-school held in local church. Churches are off limits for firearms.

13. Attend HPRB meeting. Fat chance with carrying there.

So what are the legal duties of a CCW holder? Disarm, return home and leave weapon?

Also, explain your answer to #10.

protegeV · Jan 26, 2016

I agree with most of what bikebreath said. Problem is that some of the places that you can't carry have nothing to do with business restrictions.

Some places, even someone with an unrestricted permit can;t carry.

Stoveman · Jan 26, 2016

Bikebreath said:
I'll take a shot.

1. Drop of kids at school(stay in car). Probably can't have it on school property.

2. Get coffee at local store. Sure

3. Go to work (office). Sure

4. Drop off check/cash at bank. Sure

5. Go to lunch at food court in local mall. Sure

6. Go back to office. Sure

7. Go to post office to purchase a money order for business purposes. No way.

8. Go to county dept of planning and zoning for info on a customer's property. No way.

9. Back to office. Sure

10. Attend local business happy hour at local establishment. No way.

11. Attend board of commerce meeting at local library. Not sure on this one, but go ahead and chance it.

12. Pick up child from private pre-school held in local church. Churches are off limits for firearms.

13. Attend HPRB meeting. Fat chance with carrying there.

Good, but not sure you are correct about churches. Do you have a cite?

Perusing handgunlaw.us shows that a county, municipal corporation or special taxing district MAY enact laws concerning parks, churches, etc...

I poured through HoCo's ordinances a while back and could find nothing prohibiting carry in churches. Of course, YMMV.

Bikebreath · Jan 26, 2016

Store the piece in your car. I would use a lock box.

There is some precent of space for alcohol in an establishment. I'm digging deep in my memory, (it's so deep, cob webs etc), I'm going with, if 50% of sales are for alcohol then you can not bring in a firearm. You definitely can't bring if you are drinking.

Bikebreath · Jan 26, 2016

Stoveman said:
Good, but not sure you are correct about churches. Do you have a cite?

Perusing handgunlaw.us shows that a county, municipal corporation or special taxing district MAY enact laws concerning parks, churches, etc...

I poured through HoCo's ordinances a while back and could find nothing prohibiting carry in churches. Of course, YMMV.

No, can't cite. It was in those cobwebs somewhere in my memory. If the church gives you permission it's ok, but you need permission.

marylandmark · Jan 26, 2016

1. legal
2. legal
3. legal
4. legal
5. legal
6. legal
7. illegal, no guns on USPS property
8. legal - can't carry on Fed or State property but good to go on county property
9. legal
10. legal and can consume, just can't become intoxicated although there is no legal standard for intoxication and they can't test you unless you give them the okay to do so
11. legal
12. legal as long as you don't get out of your car, illegal if you get out
13. illigal only due to being held state property

http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organizati...singDivision/Firearms/WearandCarryPermit.aspx

Bikebreath · Jan 26, 2016

marylandmark said:
1. legal
2. legal
3. legal
4. legal
5. legal
6. legal
7. illegal, no guns on USPS property
8. legal - can't carry on Fed or State property but good to go on county property
9. legal
10. legal and can consume, just can't become intoxicated although there is no legal standard for intoxication and they can't test you unless you give them the okay to do so
11. legal
12. legal as long as you don't get out of your car, illegal if you get out
13. illigal only due to being held state property

http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organizati...singDivision/Firearms/WearandCarryPermit.aspx

REALLY?! It's ok to consume? That's stunning.

6pack · Jan 26, 2016

It's my understanding that you can consume also. These are good things for someone to add to the MSI Wiki page.

marylandmark · Jan 26, 2016

Bikebreath said:
REALLY?! It's ok to consume? That's stunning.

The law states you can't be intoxicated, it doesn't say you can't have a drink or a few (not saying it is the smartest thing to do, just stating that alcohol isn't against the law if all other restrictions are being met).

Here is a little snip from Jack from this thread: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=3481871 about "intoxicated".

This is Jack: http://www.strikepointsafety.com/about-me/

Jack McCauley said:
Intoxicated is probably too strong of a term. I forget sometimes you guys on this forum analyze the very finest details. But that is a good thing. Under the influence would mean "Impairment." You can drive a vehicle legally in Maryland after consuming alcohol. However, you can be arrested if an officer develops probable cause to show you are impaired or intoxicated. The proof that is generally required for a conviction is testimony from the officer that describes what he/she observed. That testimony will require the officer to show he/she has been trained in recognizing impairment and the officer has had experience in observing impairment. This training and experience generally comes from formal training that meets the Maryland Police and Correctional Training guidelines where a class participant consumes a known amount of alcohol during a known time period. The participants' actual BAC is tested to show their level of impairment. Using the guidelines established by MD law under the Per Se rule, we know that impairment begins at .07 BAC. The number of drinks it takes to reach a .07 varies by person depending on weight, size etc. The average size man will not reach a .07 from two drinks. Next, the officer will need to testify as to the field sobriety tests that were given to help evaluate the driver's impairment level. These tests are standardized. If the officer fails to follows the proper guidelines on the administration of the tests, they are generally discarded by the court as bad evidence. Next the court relies most on the official test that is used to determine the level of BAC. The equipment used to administer this test is calibrated and examined monthly under the Office of the Medical Examiner's guidelines by Maryland law. The officer administering the test must be trained and must have maintained a certification to administer the test. If a person who is legally authorized to carry a handgun with a valid permit in the State of Maryland has alcohol in their system, there would need to be proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, before this would lead to a conviction. There are laws in Maryland that penalize a driver for refusing to take tests which will accurately determine their level of impairment. Without these tests, most DUI cases are lost unless the officer can do a very good job of articulating his/her observations. In most cases, the offender has to be very intoxicated to reveal sufficient observations. There are no penalties for a person, who is authorized to carry a handgun by permit, that refuses any tests offered by a uniformed officer. Most of the time, the permit violation is only observed when a person is arrested for DUI and they are carrying. And more often than not, the charges related to the Handgun Permit violation are dismissed as a matter of a plea agreement.

ETA:

Attached in the letter that comes with a permit. G states "Any wearing, carrying or transporting of handguns by a permit holder while under the influence of alcohol or drugs"

It's been hashed out what "influence" means but I'm going with what Jack says above in that (not putting words in his mouth, my understanding is) influence needs proof and you don't have to submit to any tests to provide them proof.

ETAA:

I'm going through my renewal right now and going to apply to have restrictions removed after that (OPM hack although my permit is not from that job but for my other job as a business owner). If they don't remove them then I'm going to the HGRB. If they uphold the MSP I want it on record that even though I have restrictions I'm pretty much working 24/7 like this guy got on this post http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=4191362&postcount=751 (long thread and more info in it, just quoting that post since it was the first one I could find). It may not help on the side of the road but I feel it will 100% help in court.

Straightshooter · Jan 26, 2016

Bikebreath said:
Store the piece in your car. I would use a lock box.

There is some precent of space for alcohol in an establishment. I'm digging deep in my memory, (it's so deep, cob webs etc), I'm going with, if 50% of sales are for alcohol then you can not bring in a firearm. You definitely can't bring if you are drinking.

Some states have such restrictions, MD is not one of them.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

montoya32 · Jan 26, 2016

6pack said:
It's my understanding that you can consume also. These are good things for someone to add to the MSI Wiki page.

marylandmark said:
The law states you can't be intoxicated, it doesn't say you can't have a drink or a few (not saying it is the smartest thing to do, just stating that alcohol isn't against the law if all other restrictions are being met).

Here is a little snip from Jack from this thread: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=3481871 about "intoxicated".

This is Jack: http://www.strikepointsafety.com/about-me/

ETA:

Attached in the letter that comes with a permit. G states "Any wearing, carrying or transporting of handguns by a permit holder while under the influence of alcohol or drugs"

It's been hashed out what "influence" means but I'm going with what Jack says above in that (not putting words in his mouth, my understanding is) influence needs proof and you don't have to submit to any tests to provide them proof.

There are those who will chastise anyone who drinks a drop of alcohol while carrying, but it is neither illegal or prohibited(see what I did there?). If someone thinks you cannot have a drink, then don't take cough medicine or any pain medication. The "warning" about consuming comes from attorneys who say defending your decision making while alcohol is present in your system is much more questionable.

marylandmark · Jan 26, 2016

Thoughts on the rest of my answers?

I doubt most feel the same as I do but I think if I were to get arrested for carrying outside of my restrictions that I would be able to win in court. Life would suck and it would cost a lot of money but I really think deep down the State isn't out to get me as much as some would like me to believe. I don't want to be proven wrong but think if I do the right thing (shut my pie hole and let a lawyer handle it, someone on this site once said "I've never seen anyone talk themselves out of an arrest but plenty have talked themselves in to one" and that statement stuck with me) that I would prevail.

danb · Jan 26, 2016

As for consuming alcohol while armed, just because you can do a thing does not mean you should. In this state even in-the-home shootings get prosecuted when there is even the faintest window for the prosecutor to attempt to go through (think: Pinkerton). 18 months and $25k in legal bills later the charges might get dismissed by the judge. I'd much rather not go someplace where I thought stupid was going to break out.

I am paranoid about schools too. The paperwork the school sends home says no weapons of any kind on the property.

danb · Jan 26, 2016

montoya32 said:
?

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=187844

rambling_one · Jan 26, 2016

Not sure why OP is concerned. If challenged by law enforcement, Sgt Knaub will clarify, except when he's on vacation or otherwise unavailable. :sarcasm:

Just an exercise to show the issues with MD's carry laws.

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