224 Valkyrie from Federal

Adding another caliber to the mix: Sharps .25-45
Look here http://store.srcarms.com/

So many choices; so little time (and money)

Jerry

Jerry M said:

Adding another caliber to the mix: Sharps .25-45
Look here http://store.srcarms.com/

So many choices; so little time (and money)

Jerry

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You got that right. Blackhole Weaponry has been doing many calibers that others are doing or should I say trying to do for years. Mainly based off 6.8 and 6.5 cases.

I wouldn't say the .224 is an answer to question * nobody * asked . It was an answer to a narrow niche question.

I like unusual cals , and could potentially see myself playing with it . But in no way is it a replacement or substitute for .223 .

There is definitely a hole wanting to be fill for larger than .223 bullet, on .223 headsize . .300 seems to have established its market.

The next question is there room for two .223 based ctgs larger than .22 dia , presumably an inbetween bore size . IF there is , it only has room for one more . Will( would) it be the .277Wolverine, .25-45 Sharps , or the 6x45 ? In a perfect world the 6x45 would have taken off back in the mid '90s ( Oly Arms did introduce back then , but with the events of Clinton AWB it was stillborn .)

I have a blackhole barrel in 6x45 and it shoots lights out with 60 to 85 grain bullets. I've killed a few deer with it. Here is 5- 5 shot groups at 100 yards all were shot one after the other. Just 25 consecutive shot. And of course the pic is sideways. Oh well I tried

I have no interest in adopting this round, but the 90 grain federal fusion loading looks on paper like a good performer. Its sectional is pretty respectable at around .256. Personally I am happy just dealing with the compromises inherent in a large pattern AR to gain access to more traditional long range precision and hunting cartridges. At this point, the cost is probably 30%+ more than a traditional AR, but there is good parts availability for DPMS patterns receivers. I love my AR .308 now that clandestine has worked it over.

If I were to pick a long range "precision" or hunting round for a normal AR pattern rifle, I would pick 6.5 Grendel. Cheap plinking ammo is available, and I like the bullets that are in the class. Lots of good options. Unfortunately you are still stuck with the same relatively weak bolt design inherent in AR bolts that can handle that family of cartridge (6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .224 Valkyrie, etc). CMMG makes their mutant family of rifles to correct that problem, but now you're stuck with a larger proprietary gun again. Might as well just go with a bigger frame AR. .224 Valkyrie seems to fill a niche, but not one I am all that interested in.

Regardless of that, I am glad to see federal experimenting with new cartridge designs. I hope it does well.

That’s why I am going 6.5 Grendel. Reasonably popular in Europe. You can get bolt guns chambered in it. Good long range performance. Adoption seems to be slowly increasing while 6.8SPC seems to be slowly dropping off. Steel cased ammo is available (still isn’t in .300BO and 6.5 has significantly better long range performance). Sufficient energy and sectional density to be a legit short/medium deer caliber.

Not a replacement for a .308/AR-10 size rifle. On the other hand I’d guess the 6.5 I am building is probably going to hit a bit under 8lbs with scope and without going exotic/expensive. A .308 AR-10 is probably going to be more like 9-9.5lbs scoped for a fairly lightweight 16” rifle (granted I have zero experience building those yet, but I’ve got a lower and upper waiting for that day).

lazarus said:

That’s why I am going 6.5 Grendel. Reasonably popular in Europe. You can get bolt guns chambered in it. Good long range performance. Adoption seems to be slowly increasing while 6.8SPC seems to be slowly dropping off. Steel cased ammo is available (still isn’t in .300BO and 6.5 has significantly better long range performance). Sufficient energy and sectional density to be a legit short/medium deer caliber.

Not a replacement for a .308/AR-10 size rifle. On the other hand I’d guess the 6.5 I am building is probably going to hit a bit under 8lbs with scope and without going exotic/expensive. A .308 AR-10 is probably going to be more like 9-9.5lbs scoped for a fairly lightweight 16” rifle (granted I have zero experience building those yet, but I’ve got a lower and upper waiting for that day).

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My 16" AR .308 weighs around 8lbs, 3oz with iron sights and an EOTech 512 mounted. It could certainly be lighter, but the weight is mostly in the receiver and the big ol BCG. Balances pretty well. I think it's definitely viable for carrying around all day in the woods, particularly with a sling. I could trim a full pound off of it if I went with a lightweight bcg, carbon fiber tube, lighter optic or irons only, and lighter buttstock. But thats going to add probably $1000 to the overall build cost, and the 25 round mags still weigh a ton. Handy enough for me as is!

I think 6.5 Grendel is a great option for short to medium range general purpose hunting. I would be that guy running around with a Faxon Gunner profile 18" barrel and light weight build, but most of the 6.5 Grendel setups I've seen are pretty heavy. Then again, that is not the fault of the cartridge . . .

ETA: I think the main benefit of something like .224 Valkyrie is the cheaper parts availability in semi auto vs something in the .308 family. Barrel still seems like it needs to be long (Ironically 6.5 Grendel SBRs perform really well). Low recoil is great too, but I don't feel like 6.5grendel recoil is bad. To me it is just not enough of an improvement. The high bc bullets and brass aren't particularly interchangeable with anything I shoot, so reloading wouldn't really save me much. At any rate I think it is definitely a round that many will adopt and love, but it just doesn't do much for me personally. Way better than .22 nosler though.

I mean if what you are looking for is a long range semi-auto rifle with good parts availability and you are looking between a 24” Grendel, a 24” .223 or a .308, .260 or 6.5CM then a 24” .224V might be the best combination of price and long range performance.

But it seems like a bad option compared to basically anything else up there for hunting, except maybe actual varmit performance at longer ranges. And I suspect that a shorter barrel, just like 22 Nosler, is going to see only a tiny increase in performance over .223 for more expensive parts and much, much more expensive ammo (if you don’t reload).

Back at #28 , part way down .

The phrase " short to medium range hunting" being used in conjunction with 6.5G , I have to throw a flag .That phrase would fit very well in regards to 6.8SPC .( Not that's theres anything wrong with that. That's a legit niche , and SPC fans may go forth with my blessing in that context .) But the whole point of the Grendel is launching bullets with high ( for the platform) sectional density and BC , for improved long range performance.

Biggfoot44 said:

Back at #28 , part way down .

The phrase " short to medium range hunting" being used in conjunction with 6.5G , I have to throw a flag .That phrase would fit very well in regards to 6.8SPC .( Not that's theres anything wrong with that. That's a legit niche , and SPC fans may go forth with my blessing in that context .) But the whole point of the Grendel is launching bullets with high ( for the platform) sectional density and BC , for improved long range performance.

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That is a fair criticism, particularly given my lack of specificity regarding what is being hunted and how I would configure a 6.5g hunting rifle. Personally I would go with an 18" barrel and would hunt deer sized game at 300 yards and in. I suppose I would be using the round wrong given its intent, but that is what I would do with it. Out past 300 yards, I would want something with more energy, even with high bc bullets that expand at velocities low as some of the 6.5g loadings do. I'd certainly be happy to shoot steel out to longer range though.

Now a 12.5" with a suppressor, hmm . . .

fbi_surveillance_van said:

That is a fair criticism, particularly given my lack of specificity regarding what is being hunted and how I would configure a 6.5g hunting rifle. Personally I would go with an 18" barrel and would hunt deer sized game at 300 yards and in. I suppose I would be using the round wrong given its intent, but that is what I would do with it. Out past 300 yards, I would want something with more energy, even with high bc bullets that expand at velocities low as some of the 6.5g loadings do. I'd certainly be happy to shoot steel out to longer range though.

Now a 12.5" with a suppressor, hmm . . .

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That mirrors my thoughts as well, also what and how I am building my 6.5 AR-15. Now, I plan to get a 22” Howa 1500 down the road in 6.5, and that might push it out another 50-100yds.

I am sure 6.5 Grendel could absolutely take a deer past that, but frankly with ANYTHING even with a range finder and good dope I don’t think I’d be comfortable shooting at a deer past 400yds.

I’d worry that much more about shot placement and expansion at longer ranges and I’d rather be delivering a few hundred fps/ft-lbs of extra smack down power if I was (maybe something like a 300 win mag might make me feel comfortable taking a shoot at a deer pushing 500yds).

I know it CAN push 1000yds with the right bullet and Barrel, but that is more paper/steel.

Deer hunting distances are ( should be ) ultimately defined by ability to shoot accurately, in the field, and judge field conditions in the neighborhood of 300yds is a frequently cited distancr , and well beyond typical deer distances. Yeah, yeah , lies, damn lies, statistics , but 300yd IS a useful distance to discuss .

Comparing 20in vs 20in bbls , Grendel has 27% more energy @ 300yd than SPC . To me that's a meaningful difference .

Biggfoot44 said:

Deer hunting distances are ( should be ) ultimately defined by ability to shoot accurately, in the field, and judge field conditions in the neighborhood of 300yds is a frequently cited distancr , and well beyond typical deer distances. Yeah, yeah , lies, damn lies, statistics , but 300yd IS a useful distance to discuss .

Comparing 20in vs 20in bbls , Grendel has 27% more energy @ 300yd than SPC . To me that's a meaningful difference .

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Absolutely! 6.8SPC is a better short barrel/short range cartridge than 6.5 Grendel. My personal definition is out to 100 yards is short range and out to 300 is medium range*. Inside 200 or with a 14.5-16” Barrel 6.8 SPC seems to be a better to much better round. Also have to account for wider meplat once it does connect with something.

Frankly around here (MD), 6.8SPC is probably the best AR-15 medium bore cartridge for deer hunting as most encounters are 100yds or less and rare last 200. I want something that doesn’t seem to be slowly fading away, can reach out there for range shooting, has steel cased ammo (so does 6.8SPC I know) and I can find a bolt gun chambered in the cartridge.

More power to the 6.8 crowd, but I don’t want a pinned 14.5” Barrel like my uncle has on his 6.8 AR. The thing would suck without ear pro on hunting. An 18” Barrel is just fine to maneuver through the woods. Still shorter than my .308 sako and I don’t have a weight yet, but I suspect slapped on the completed lower I plan to, depending on final optic, 8-8 1/4lbs. With the lower I’ll finish in a few months, shed a few more ounces off. That is the same weight as my .308 Sako (8lbs 1oz with scope and sling).

If you do want the lightest and shortest possible AR for deer hunting...well a .456 SOCOM 14.5” pinned and welded AR-15 is probably still the way to go to hammer them flat out to a 100 or maybe 150yds.

*that said actually hunting I think there has been ONE time I’ve seen a deer past 200yds. And the pair of buttons walked to within 20yds of my stand when I flattened one with my 12ga 870 from a stand. Otherwise 2-3 times I’ve seen them to 100-150yds. Everything else has been within 100yds and no deer I’ve shot at or killed has been further than 80yds. Granted I have yet to run in to a deer at ANY distance with anything scoped. Should change now that I have my ML scoped.

lazarus said:

Absolutely! 6.8SPC is a better short barrel/short range cartridge than 6.5 Grendel. My personal definition is out to 100 yards is short range and out to 300 is medium range*. Inside 200 or with a 14.5-16” Barrel 6.8 SPC seems to be a better to much better round. Also have to account for wider meplat once it does connect with something.

Frankly around here (MD), 6.8SPC is probably the best AR-15 medium bore cartridge for deer hunting as most encounters are 100yds or less and rare last 200. I want something that doesn’t seem to be slowly fading away, can reach out there for range shooting, has steel cased ammo (so does 6.8SPC I know) and I can find a bolt gun chambered in the cartridge.

More power to the 6.8 crowd, but I don’t want a pinned 14.5” Barrel like my uncle has on his 6.8 AR. The thing would suck without ear pro on hunting. An 18” Barrel is just fine to maneuver through the woods. Still shorter than my .308 sako and I don’t have a weight yet, but I suspect slapped on the completed lower I plan to, depending on final optic, 8-8 1/4lbs. With the lower I’ll finish in a few months, shed a few more ounces off. That is the same weight as my .308 Sako (8lbs 1oz with scope and sling).

If you do want the lightest and shortest possible AR for deer hunting...well a .456 SOCOM 14.5” pinned and welded AR-15 is probably still the way to go to hammer them flat out to a 100 or maybe 150yds.

*that said actually hunting I think there has been ONE time I’ve seen a deer past 200yds. And the pair of buttons walked to within 20yds of my stand when I flattened one with my 12ga 870 from a stand. Otherwise 2-3 times I’ve seen them to 100-150yds. Everything else has been within 100yds and no deer I’ve shot at or killed has been further than 80yds. Granted I have yet to run in to a deer at ANY distance with anything scoped. Should change now that I have my ML scoped.

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I am going to wait and see. See what the pricing will be like on parts (right now barrels are $500). The pricing on ammo looks to be reasonable, if it performs as advertised. I want to see some real world results compared to the 6.5 Grendel.

As far as the light/short deer hammer, I built a pinned and welded 14.5" .358 Yeti tossing a 180gr Speer Hot Cor at just under 2500fps. I have no doubts in this platform out to 200 yards.

Once I get a Savage .223 donor action, I will build a 16" bolt gun in .277 Wolverine (have a 12.5" pistol now) for medium range.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.....

lazarus said:

Frankly around here (MD), 6.8SPC is probably the best AR-15 medium bore cartridge for deer hunting as most encounters are 100yds or less and rare last 200. I want something that doesn’t seem to be slowly fading away, can reach out there for range shooting, has steel cased ammo (so does 6.8SPC I know) and I can find a bolt gun chambered in the cartridge.

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I could be wrong, but I can't find any steel cased 6.8SPC. Not sure it is being made. That said, I am thankful that you caused me to do a search, because some hilarious threads popped up on other forums regarding the benefits and drawbacks of steel cased ammo becoming available for 6.8, most of which deteriorated into less than polite arguments regarding 5.56/.223 and military cartridges in general. Highly entertaining, thank you.

Back on topic (ish), I am interested to see how .224 Valkyrie evolves. I wonder if we will see some heavier bullets loaded for it (100+ gr loadings). I thought the federal fusion loading was going to be 100gr per a TFB article, but I am seeing 90gr on federal's website.

I don't want to seem to be unduly hating on the 6.8SPC . I absolutely concede it is : 1. Far better deer-ish hunting ctg than .223 2. Plenty good enough for Bambi ( out to "suitable" distances 3. Those suitable distances are undoubtedly in excess of those for .30-30. 4. Which certainly makes it adequate for Bambi hunting definitely in the woods , and probably reasonably close to the mythical "average distance " .

But , I tried really, really hard to come up with a situation the 6.8SPC would be "better" than 6.5 Grendel , and not really seeing it .

With my usual ballistic charts , of 20in vs 20in bbls, the 6.8 has just a hair more ft lb at the actual muzzle, but that reverses very quickly beyond literal spitting distances .

But meanwhile , ft lb per se is poor predictor of game effectiveness . There are a zillion perspectives, and calculations to compare this , and all of them fall apart when trying to compare dissimilar ctgs . But 6.8 and 6.5 are very similar and parameter bias would be equivalent for each.

When I contemplate such things , I generally use the calculations put forth by the late writer, and deee expert John Wooters . It involves ft lb of energy , sectional density, and bore diameter, and presupposes the ctgs is reasonably suitable for deer , or sometimes elk , and expanding bullets of reasonably suitable design & performance are used .

Using those calculations , the 6.5G is aprox 10% better at muzzle, and widens farther the longer the distance.

But that's with 20 inch bbls , what 'bout 16in , or even sbr/pistol ?

The basic bore size , and opperating pressures are reasonably close, so the important factor is Bore Expansion Ratio . Heck I Like expansion ratios, I frequently take them in vane in discussions of short bbl ballistics until peoples eyes roll back.

Annnnd , 6.5 and 6.8 are within 10% of each other. Doesn't have easily quantified term to describe, but when all else essentially equal , a heavier bullet will have more efficient powder burn in first cpl of inches . Hard to easily quantify , but whatever it is , would be to advantage of Grendel , closing already small difference in expansion ratio .

Pending real world chrono results , from multiples examples each cal , in 10.5 inch bbls , I'll consider the bbl length factor to be close enough to be lost in the noise of bbl to bbl variation in same cal.

For comparison, the bore expansion ratio of .300blk is just over half that of the 6.5. Just to get really silly , I'll later on run the numbers for bore expansion for 9x19 AR , but not this moment.

The TL/DR = 6.8SPC isn't bad , but 6.5Grendel can do at least as well at close range , and much better at long distances.,

Well shoot, I swore wolf made 6.8spc. Nope. I am completely imagining it. So one more check next to 6.5G and a strike next to 6.8SPC.

I mean the initial price advertised isn’t horrible.

Butttt, a lot more than .223 and also still more then Grendel. The only price point it is less at is the TMJ AE stuff. I haven’t seen 6.5G FMJ less than $16 a box. Buttt, you can get steel case bimetal jacket wolf at $4.95 a box for Grendel.

The gold medal match, .308, .223 and 6.5G gold medal match are all several bucks a box less (6.5CM? I haven’t looked at the price of CM in a long time).

Hunting ammo also a lot less for .308 and 6.5G. Heck federal’s MSR 6.5G seems to be $25 a box. And there are plenty of other good hunting loads at $19-22 a box for 6.5G.

No I don’t expect it to be the cheapest thing around. But, you can get not terrible 75/77gr HPBT match ammo in .223/5.56 for $10–15 a box. IMI 77gr 5.56mm is loaded pretty hot and will do close to 2800fps out of a 20” Barrel. Best I can find is the gold medal match 90gr .224V data where one tester claims 2668FPS out of a 20” Barrel. Which ain’t shabby.

On the other hand the ammo is twice the price for .224V gold medal compared to IMI 5.56 77gr. I’ve gotten sub MOA accuracy out of the IMI stuff and should have a lot of long range potential on tap. Probably about the same as .224V 75gr AE TMJ stuff. I’d imagine the .224V AE 75gr will have a slight velocity edge in the same size barrel, but still likely small. Will it be as accurate?

Don't forget the Magtech/cbc 77gr mk262 clone. 55 cents a round or so. I think I got my case at SGAmmo, and it's super accurate out of my DMR AR.

fbi_surveillance_van said:

Don't forget the Magtech/cbc 77gr mk262 clone. 55 cents a round or so. I think I got my case at SGAmmo, and it's super accurate out of my DMR AR.

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I’ll give it a try at some point. My go to right now is PPU 75gr .223. I’ve been able to find it on sale for $10 a box from Cabela’s, toss in some other discounts and more like 40 cents a round shipped. It punches 3/4” MOA 5 round groups out of my AR-15. Only thing more accurate is 64 grain Golddots amazingly enough. I get some 2/3” 5-shot groups with those. 75gr gold dot is about 1MOA and from what I can see has a good 50-80lb-ft more energy on tap plus better down range energy and penetration. So I keep the 75gr GD on hand for hunting if/when I take out my 20” HBAR .223

75gr PPU or IMI for long range shooting.

lazarus said:

I’ll give it a try at some point. My go to right now is PPU 75gr .223. I’ve been able to find it on sale for $10 a box from Cabela’s, toss in some other discounts and more like 40 cents a round shipped. It punches 3/4” MOA 5 round groups out of my AR-15. Only thing more accurate is 64 grain Golddots amazingly enough. I get some 2/3” 5-shot groups with those. 75gr gold dot is about 1MOA and from what I can see has a good 50-80lb-ft more energy on tap plus better down range energy and penetration. So I keep the 75gr GD on hand for hunting if/when I take out my 20” HBAR .223

75gr PPU or IMI for long range shooting.

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I've had the PRVIs and the 77 Noslers (reloads) out to 900yds with my 20" bolt-gun. Definitely running out of steam, but doable and I wouldn't hesitate to buy again. Especially at $10/box.

I am still intrigued with the 224V as I like shooting distance. Especially if the 100gr bullets pan out. I'll wait for more data, but watching intently.