Game/Deer Rifles and Cartridges

teratos · Dec 1, 2021

Melnic said:
When people talk about a flatter bullet. What is really the difference at 200 yards vs 100 yards anyway?
Every time I looked around, I saw not much difference.
I have used 308 on deer but never took a shot beyond 110 yards.
And what's the big deal about needing it flatter if you know your gun can range your kill beyond the 100 yards?
Is the 30-06/308 bullet going to be more affected by wind than a 270/6.5mm bullet?

Depends on the weight of the bullets/velocity. If it's a flat shooting cartridge, an inch? If it is a .50 Beo....feet.

steves1911 · Dec 1, 2021

Melnic said:
When people talk about a flatter bullet. What is really the difference at 200 yards vs 100 yards anyway?
Every time I looked around, I saw not much difference.
I have used 308 on deer but never took a shot beyond 110 yards.
And what's the big deal about needing it flatter if you know your gun can range your kill beyond the 100 yards?
Is the 30-06/308 bullet going to be more affected by wind than a 270/6.5mm bullet?

When I went on a hunt in Tx and the possibility existed that they were out to 200 yards, I ranged my gun and scribbled my turret settings or dots for various distances. Whether I adjusted the elevation turret or just used the dot, I was fine.
Maybe a flatter bullet helps with "buck fever" and one forgetting to do that and just aiming on the center cross hairs? You'll have to forgive me cause I do/did most my hunting with crossbow and I for sure needed to test my crossbow and get the ranges of the lines set up and measure distances from my stand so I knew which to use.

The diffrence betweend 100yd and 200yd isnt much for most bottlenecked rifle cartridges. Its when you get into the 300yd + range where they reallly start seperating themselves. I like my 257wby in big open areas zeroed @250yds I only need 1 moa hold @300 2moa@400 and 4moa@500 . Under 250yds im never more than 2" high. Deer dont always stand around long enough to range and dial and by the time you do that it may have wandered 30yds closer or farther away. Ive shot steel with a 20" 308 @ 1k yds but if im hunting and shots are likely over 300yds its stays home. I prefer to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible when it comes to hunting.

trickg · Dec 1, 2021

Melnic said:
When people talk about a flatter bullet. What is really the difference at 200 yards vs 100 yards anyway?
Every time I looked around, I saw not much difference.
I have used 308 on deer but never took a shot beyond 110 yards.
And what's the big deal about needing it flatter if you know your gun can range your kill beyond the 100 yards?
Is the 30-06/308 bullet going to be more affected by wind than a 270/6.5mm bullet?

When I went on a hunt in Tx and the possibility existed that they were out to 200 yards, I ranged my gun and scribbled my turret settings or dots for various distances. Whether I adjusted the elevation turret or just used the dot, I was fine.
Maybe a flatter bullet helps with "buck fever" and one forgetting to do that and just aiming on the center cross hairs? You'll have to forgive me cause I do/did most my hunting with crossbow and I for sure needed to test my crossbow and get the ranges of the lines set up and measure distances from my stand so I knew which to use.

I suspect that for most hunters in most circumstances, it's largely academic for which calibers shoot flatter than others.

Again, I've got no firsthand experience hunting, so I only know what I've read, and what I've experienced shooting from a bench, but I'd tend to think that hunters who prefer shots in the vitals - the heart and lungs - if your rifle is reasonably accurate, I'd tend to think that you're going to get a kill shot, even if you misjudge your trajectory and point of impact a bit due to distance at practical ranges. By "practical," I'm thinking of distances inside of 300 yards - I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to take a shot beyond that.

gwchem · Dec 1, 2021

steves1911 said:
The diffrence betweend 100yd and 200yd isnt much for most bottlenecked rifle cartridges. Its when you get into the 300yd + range where they reallly start seperating themselves. I like my 257wby in big open areas zeroed @250yds I only need 1 moa hold @300 2moa@400 and 4moa@500 . Under 250yds im never more than 2" high. Deer dont always stand around long enough to range and dial and by the time you do that it may have wandered 30yds closer or farther away. Ive shot steel with a 20" 308 @ 1k yds but if im hunting and shots are likely over 300yds its stays home. I prefer to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible when it comes to hunting.

This. My 20" .308 is dropping fast by 250 yards, with commercial ammo at 2500 fps. Hornady super performance brings it back to 2800 fps.

By "flatter" I'm saying that I want better chances to judge correctly between 250 and 350 yards. I hunt very big fields with 1000 yard lines of sight.

Bountied · Dec 1, 2021

gwchem said:
This. My 20" .308 is dropping fast by 250 yards, with commercial ammo at 2500 fps. Hornady super performance brings it back to 2800 fps.

By "flatter" I'm saying that I want better chances to judge correctly between 250 and 350 yards. I hunt very big fields with 1000 yard lines of sight.

Know your DOPE.

Archeryrob · Dec 1, 2021

Trickg, I have tended to find out that many bullets and calibers can be quite overkill. I have switched to lead flat meplat bullets as my preferred rounds because, they do less damage if they hit muscles and I am eating what i shoot and hunting short range of 25 - 125 yards normally

Reference;
I shot a doe with an Hornady SST in 30-06 and shot between two trees and thought I had the heart shot. I got the shoulder and that bullet shock value destroyed effectively most of that shoulder. Went in the heart and opened the other side like a flower. I looked in the chest cavity and lungs and couldn't find that bullet and it did not exit the deer. I did not like the idea of lead fragmenting everywhere in what I was eating. If I did not self butcher I would not have seen that destroyed front shoulder from the small entrance hole it made. I would not have seen all that damage and destroyed meat. The butcher would have just given me less meat. I stopped shooting those plastic tipped hollow points after that.

My daughter just shot a buck with the 6.5 Grendel and we all know that is a screaming round. Smaller bullet but kills on shock and kE. That bullet entered low in the lungs and maybe touched the bottom of the heart and the heart was ripped right up the middle in two and barely attached at the top. The buck went 10 yards, if that. Put that a shoulder, or both and you, or the butcher, will be tossing meat in the trash.

Chest cavity shots kill good and don't waste meat.

Bountied · Dec 1, 2021

Archeryrob said:
Trickg, I have tended to find out that many bullets and calibers can be quite overkill. I have switched to lead flat meplat bullets as my preferred rounds because, they do less damage if they hit muscles and I am eating what i shoot and hunting short range of 25 - 125 yards normally

Reference;
I shot a doe with an Hornady SST in 30-06 and shot between two trees and thought I had the heart shot. I got the shoulder and that bullet shock value destroyed effectively most of that shoulder. Went in the heart and opened the other side like a flower. I looked in the chest cavity and lungs and couldn't find that bullet and it did not exit the deer. I did not like the idea of lead fragmenting everywhere in what I was eating. If I did not self butcher I would not have seen that destroyed front shoulder from the small entrance hole it made. I would not have seen all that damage and destroyed meat. The butcher would have just given me less meat. I stopped shooting those plastic tipped hollow points after that.

My daughter just shot a buck with the 6.5 Grendel and we all know that is a screaming round. Smaller bullet but kills on shock and kE. That bullet entered low in the lungs and maybe touched the bottom of the heart and the heart was ripped right up the middle in two and barely attached at the top. The buck went 10 yards, if that. Put that a shoulder, or both and you, or the butcher, will be tossing meat in the trash.

Chest cavity shots kill good and don't waste meat.

Head shots don't waste any meat...

Archeryrob · Dec 1, 2021

Bountied said:
Head shots don't waste any meat...

They ruin the antlers though

plus is a smaller target that moves more.

trickg · Dec 1, 2021

Archeryrob said:
Trickg, I have tended to find out that many bullets and calibers can be quite overkill. I have switched to lead flat meplat bullets as my preferred rounds because, they do less damage if they hit muscles and I am eating what i shoot and hunting short range of 25 - 125 yards normally

Reference;
I shot a doe with an Hornady SST in 30-06 and shot between two trees and thought I had the heart shot. I got the shoulder and that bullet shock value destroyed effectively most of that shoulder. Went in the heart and opened the other side like a flower. I looked in the chest cavity and lungs and couldn't find that bullet and it did not exit the deer. I did not like the idea of lead fragmenting everywhere in what I was eating. If I did not self butcher I would not have seen that destroyed front shoulder from the small entrance hole it made. I would not have seen all that damage and destroyed meat. The butcher would have just given me less meat. I stopped shooting those plastic tipped hollow points after that.

My daughter just shot a buck with the 6.5 Grendel and we all know that is a screaming round. Smaller bullet but kills on shock and kE. That bullet entered low in the lungs and maybe touched the bottom of the heart and the heart was ripped right up the middle in two and barely attached at the top. The buck went 10 yards, if that. Put that a shoulder, or both and you, or the butcher, will be tossing meat in the trash.

Chest cavity shots kill good and don't waste meat.

I was watching a video the other day about the double shoulder shot, which seem like an effective shot to drop a deer in it's tracks. Supposedly it's such a shock to the central nervous system that not only is the deer immobilized due to the damage to the shoulders, but it's supposed to be a nearly instant kill - deer has no idea what hit it. The downside of course is damaged meat. The argument for that shot is that the deer doesn't move - no chance it's going to run or move to a place where it will be hard to retrieve or be lost entirely.

I'm with you though - and again, I have no actual experience - but it seems to me that a heart/lung shot will be sufficient to keep the animal from going very far and wouldn't mess up the meat.

A buddy of mine told me a story about a doe he got while bow hunting that got all tangled up in a big sticker bush of some kind - he must have hit it in the spine because it was half paralyzed, so it's laying there all tangled up, screaming. He tried to get another shot on it but couldn't because there wasn't a good angle to get another shot. In the end he tried to wade into the bush and cut its throat, which was an attempt that ended horribly and didn't work, and he ended up body stabbing it a bunch of times until it finally died and he could safely extricate it from the sticker bush without getting attacked by a scared, wounded animal.

He was fairly new at hunting at the time, and it really shook him up - he didn't hunt for a full year after that.

outrider58 · Dec 1, 2021

trickg said:
I was watching a video the other day about the double shoulder shot, which seem like an effective shot to drop a deer in it's tracks. Supposedly it's such a shock to the central nervous system that not only is the deer immobilized due to the damage to the shoulders, but it's supposed to be a nearly instant kill - deer has no idea what hit it. The downside of course is damaged meat. The argument for that shot is that the deer doesn't move - no chance it's going to run or move to a place where it will be hard to retrieve or be lost entirely.

I'm with you though - and again, I have no actual experience - but it seems to me that a heart/lung shot will be sufficient to keep the animal from going very far and wouldn't mess up the meat.

A buddy of mine told me a story about a doe he got while bow hunting that got all tangled up in a big sticker bush of some kind - he must have hit it in the spine because it was half paralyzed, so it's laying there all tangled up, screaming. He tried to get another shot on it but couldn't because there wasn't a good angle to get another shot. In the end he tried to wade into the bush and cut its throat, which was an attempt that ended horribly and didn't work, and he ended up body stabbing it a bunch of times until it finally died and he could safely extricate it from the sticker bush without getting attacked by a scared, wounded animal.

He was fairly new at hunting at the time, and it really shook him up - he didn't hunt for a full year after that.

I think you're talking about a 'high shoulder' shot. Done correctly(usually doesn't go through to the opposite shoulder), the deer will only go three feet...straight down. On this diagram, you'll want to hit the deer just about where the dot pointing to the scapula is. I try to go a tad forward and a tad up from that dot. Instant ragdoll.

For dispatching a wounded doe with a knife, I've found that a sharp knife stuck between the ribs just behind the front leg, just above where the white belly starts. Making one incision and moving the blade up and down inside the cavity. Cutting the throat, unless you get it right, you'll basically sit and listen to it drown on its own blood. Either way, it's nasty and takes a while for the deer to expire.

outrider58 · Dec 1, 2021

Just as important to knowing where your gun hits is knowing your quarry's anatomy.

And you need to know where that anatomy lines up for a shot while the deer is standing at different angles. The rarely 'pose' broadside for a perfect shot.

Uncle Duke · Dec 1, 2021

outrider58 said:
Just as important to knowing where your gun hits is knowing your quarry's anatomy.

And you need to know where that anatomy lines up for a shot while the deer is standing at different angles. The rarely 'pose' broadside for a perfect shot.

Spot on!

Not every deer will present broadside. And when they don't, here's a view of what Outrider is saying. The idea being to be both selective in taking shots, and being sure to have both enough gun and enough understanding to be sure to catch the boiler room with the shots you do take.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 1, 2021

How far is far ? Typical, or be prepared for possibilities , and consciously set limits for your self , and set your methods accordingly ?

If usually within 100 yds or a bit , and you're cool with setting that as your personal parameters , that's entirely valid , virtually any boom stick is fine , scope not even really needed .

You to roughly 250 yards , most any vaguely suitable bottleneck ctg will work * with minimal point of aim corrections needed * . Will handle huge % of east U.S. opportunities , unless you delibertly seek long range shot .

Up to 3-400 , trajectories matter . For larger than Whitetails , retained energy starting to matter . Ctgs from previous catagory often will work , but requires careful range knowledge/ estimates , and precise knowledge of trajectory .

( Yeah , Ieft a gap between 250 and 300 on purpose .)

To extrapolate one of my Dad's concepts from above :

You can shoot a deer at 75 yards with a 300 yd capable rifle & load , a lot easier and more successfully , than the reverse .

steves1911 · Dec 1, 2021

Something else to think about most hunting bullets dont expand below 2000fps for most soft point 1800fps for some of the plastic tipped bullets. To put it in perspective a 308 shooting a 165gr soft point @2600fps retains about 2000fps @300yds. Past that the bullet will likely not expand.

Archeryrob · Dec 2, 2021

trickg said:
I'm with you though - and again, I have no actual experience - but it seems to me that a heart/lung shot will be sufficient to keep the animal from going very far and wouldn't mess up the meat.

Deer can run farther than you think on a lung shot.
- I shot a deer years back with a pumkin ball in a 12ga. through both lungs and a perfect 1" hole through each side of the heart, in the snow. That doe ran 75 yards full out sprinting and left a blood trail 6' wide. It looked like some walked with two water bottles spraying each direction on the snow for 50 yards and then lighter as she was running out and she slide almost the last ten yards.

The heart shot in the I spoke of before 40 yards, one two years back 30-06 through the lungs 75 yards and downhill. Then I've had some on the ground before I can recover from the recoil to see where they ran, which they didn't.

Shot a buck with the crossbow two years ago and he didn't even know he was shot. I watched him live for 45 second maybe. I was panicking thinking I missed somehow, but couldn't recock it. Then we walked along side of me, coughed up blood and rolled over like a sack of potatoes.

A lot of guys shoot high shock value rounds like 7mm and 300 magnum because they drop them DRT. That is fine, but don't put that round in the meat!!! Maybe that is why guys complain the butcher shorted them on meat, because their round destroyed a lot of it.

Doco Overboard · Dec 2, 2021

Melnic said:
When people talk about a flatter bullet. What is really the difference at 200 yards vs 100 yards anyway?
Every time I looked around, I saw not much difference.
I have used 308 on deer but never took a shot beyond 110 yards.
And what's the big deal about needing it flatter if you know your gun can range your kill beyond the 100 yards?

Summit of trajectory and danger space or Battle zone. Game taking in less than ideal light conditions where judging distance is not always practical and fleeting shots at game are hard won. Whats the sens of zeroing a 308 @100 yards if the field your in is 700 across?

It's not the distance between 100 to 200 yds, its being able to make hits farther away with a reduction of error from a field position or where a hold must be managed quickly without having to make corrections or guess. Cone of dispersion. Flatness of trajectory.

Its why I zero my hunting rifles for 250 yds not 100. (field hunting rifles) You have to be able too make hits to kill something. I want the to be able to shoot inside a cone that's smaller than the vitals with as little error as possible. (If everything goes right)

tosainu1 · Dec 4, 2021

I like them because I hunt strictly woods and I prefer to have better sectional density, expansion and heavy for caliber bullets..

Doco Overboard · Dec 4, 2021

steves1911 said:
Something else to think about most hunting bullets dont expand below 2000fps for most soft point 1800fps for some of the plastic tipped bullets. To put it in perspective a 308 shooting a 165gr soft point @2600fps retains about 2000fps @300yds. Past that the bullet will likely not expand.

You see what people don't often or never consider about hunting bullets at longer ranges than 100 yds or most woods shots is that the point of the bullet which is more often than not "designed" for hunting in someway is not always accurately line with the trajectory.

Virgil Co.C · Dec 5, 2021

Used 270 for years it wS my grandfathers , gave to my son . I started using 308 after giving to him but am now using a 30-06. Sometimes depending where I plan on being I will take either .35 , 30-30, 762-39.my 32 doesn’t come out much . They all do the job. If I had to pick just one it would probably be 308 just because I like that peticular gun better.Practice obviously with whatever I shoot .

RedneckGeek · Dec 6, 2021

In 1976 my dad picked up a Remington 760 in .30/06, put a Redfield 2x7 on it and stuck it in the gun room. Where it promptly sat for 8 years until I turned 14. I was finally old enough to go to the family deer camp in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and it was handed to me.

Fast forward to last weekend, that rifle has been to Alaska, Africa,
New Zealand and from Michigan to Montana to now Maryland with me. From moose & eland to groundhog & canadian geese (in NZ) that rifle will do anything I ask of it as long as I do my job. Still have to get a Sika with though, mainly because I have yet to see one when I can legally shoot it.

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