Gun Shows. Dealers, and Promoters

I had read earlier this month about a fellow complaining about the promoter of the York Gun show and it hit a familiar and little known fact about gun shows and promoters. I have sold stuff at shows and traded for many years and I have noted something over the last 10 years or so that many of you as buyers should note and act accordingly. First off note when you go to a show how many gun sellers there are and then note down the list all the other specialty dealers of different things there are. If there are a bunch of each class then prices will be competitive you would think right? Wrong most dealers run around Friday night or early Saturday morning and make sure their prices are in line with others, another words if one guy is high they are all most times high too.

We have a particular thing going on in the market of AR's and pistols and also ammo right now with there being a glut in the market so to sell things certain dealers are not going to certain shows because they don't want to do a bunch of volume but make more on each and every item they sell. The shows these dealers are boycotting are shows were certain dealers have made the cut to the prices to the point where they sell a lot to make their money. One promoter has banned certain dealers from her shows around here because of other dealers threatening to boycott her shows. The upcoming Morgantown show will have many dealers missing because the promoter has stood her ground and refuses to ban a certain dealer because his prices are way lower than these other dealers wish to go. Do yourself a favor and remember who these missing dealers are and avoid buying from them. The shows where this dealer is not at are shows that one promoter has banned him from.

There was a post on the York show where a dealer made a comment about being banned by the promoter and this promoter has been known for doing that among dealers for many years. He also refuses to spend money for advertisement as does the local Promoter who banned another dealer from her shows. All the promoter has to do is lie quickly and easily about why the dealer was banned and their butt is covered so nothing legally can be done but sooner or later it should become apparent to us as buyers and sellers to what is coming down.

There is politics in everything especially where money is concerned it seems. What can be done about it is very little I am afraid. The bad part is we as buyers go to shows and pay more and more to get in and park and for food. Me as a seller pay more and more for table rent and food too. What is happening is people are buying less and less at shows because it costs more and more just to go. Me I am raising my prices to just pay the bills and break even which is happening less and less all the time. I obviously don't do this to earn a living or I would have gone under years ago. I do it to add pieces to my personal collection and enjoy my hobby and learn things about what I collect.

I know all of us have seen a more Flea Market scene at most "Gun Shows" these days and as dealers we sure don't like it but promoters will take money from anyone to fill the halls these days. With the prices being as high as they are I think most promoters are in the black just from the rental of the tables before the first person comes in the door these days. Cronyism is no doubt being practiced widely to these days and has been as long as I have gone to gun shows. There are certain shows that I will no longer go to that a relative of the promoter has the first table by the door and nothing of interest makes it past him for another dealer to buy. Many promoters have given out reduced table rents to certain dealers for years because of their relentless support of their shows.

If you look at certain promoters sale notices they are even saying they don't control prices at their shows now. All this crap is totally eroding the quality of the shows now and making a good thing die a certain death I am afraid. I will now retreat from my soap box and let all of you consider closely what I have written and who knows where it will go. More than likely I am afraid nothing will happen but time will show us I guess. You will note I mentioned no names because although I make no money at what I do I do enjoy it and want no retribution if I can help it. Bill

zeebill, thanks for the information. I have a question. How can a buyer tell whether a vendor is missing because the promoter banned him for pricing too low, compared to a vendor who doesn't attend because such low-price vendors were not banned?

I certainly haven't seen "price matching" at MD shows.

In fact I wanted to buy the same rifle from one dealer as they were 5 minutes from my house compared to a hour drive.

The price difference on the same rifle was almost 200 more and the closer dealer wouldn't match it or even come down 50 bucks.

This was pre price hype and pre Oct 1 sales...this was around 2006.

I'm not sure I can believe some of this. The promoter makes his money 3 ways usually. Concession Stand Sales, Gates Fees and Table Fees. I doubt a promoter is going to ban a dealer for ticky tack issues. That's taking money out of his own pocket. I've only known of a few dealers that were told to leave and never come back. All were due to illegal activities. Preston Jones was one for playing by the rules (usually) and he never banned anyone.

Promoters are out for the money and they won't make it if they start banning vendors for the least little thing. Now, have a vendor sell 30 round mags in MD and I bet they will be banned.

j_h_smith said:

I'm not sure I can believe some of this. The promoter makes his money 3 ways usually. Concession Stand Sales, Gates Fees and Table Fees. I doubt a promoter is going to ban a dealer for ticky tack issues. That's taking money out of his own pocket. I've only known of a few dealers that were told to leave and never come back. All were due to illegal activities. Preston Jones was one for playing by the rules (usually) and he never banned anyone.

Promoters are out for the money and they won't make it if they start banning vendors for the least little thing. Now, have a vendor sell 30 round mags in MD and I bet they will be banned.

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Promoters have 3 dealers who won't come because one dealer who prices much lower than others is not banned and what happens there? Some promoters have banned certain dealers as a result of that. The promoter caved and banned the dealer due to the fact he may lose 3 dealers selling at bigger profit margins than the one he banned. Many of the concession stands are run by people who pay a set fee to the promoters so that has little sway to the promoter what happens there. Table fees are the same to most people buying them be they beef jerky sales or what we want gun sales and equipment associated with it. By filling the place regardless of what people are selling the promoter is making the max amount of money while watering down the gun stuff we see and buy. I don't go to a gun show to get a snack but to buy stuff for the collection. Most dealers bring their own food or buy on the way into the show because concession food is so expensive and poor in quality. Oaks Show I bought a hot dog, a cookie, and a water and it was $9.25 which I thought was a little steep but sat least I didn't threaten to die of food poisoning.

The coming Morgantown show will see one dealer selling cheaper than anyone else and at least 3 dealers staying home because of it as far as I know now. Time will tell whether the promoter caves and banns the dealer. Bill

Name Taken said:

I certainly haven't seen "price matching" at MD shows.

In fact I wanted to buy the same rifle from one dealer as they were 5 minutes from my house compared to a hour drive.

The price difference on the same rifle was almost 200 more and the closer dealer wouldn't match it or even come down 50 bucks.

This was pre price hype and pre Oct 1 sales...this was around 2006.

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The market in 2006 was far different then the surplus of equipment on the market we now have and many dealers were holding out for the last cent they could get out of things. Today they are trying to do the same thing to protect the higher prices they paid for things they bought maybe a year ago. Other newer to the market dealers are selling at the now lower prices they are buying at now and that is really squeezing the older dealers for profit. You have a choice bite the bullet a sell units for a loss or try and get the new faces on the block banned from the shows you go to by in turn squeezing the promoters to remove your competition. For buyers today I would say go and buy from the best priced dealers and ignore the others. Sooner or later the gougers will go out of business or change their practices. Bill

lsw said:

zeebill, thanks for the information. I have a question. How can a buyer tell whether a vendor is missing because the promoter banned him for pricing too low, compared to a vendor who doesn't attend because such low-price vendors were not banned?

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You got a good question there and frankly unless one is involved closely or knows someone who is honest and will tell you what is coming down I don't know the answer! I had thought of actually exposing names and stuff but I like my life and don't need lawyer fees for what I feel legally will be a hopeless cause and just spend your money for no good. You can ask the promoter I guess but I would almost guarantee you a lie would be coming your way and there would be no way to tell that. Sorry not a good answer I know! Bill

How dare you compare current gun shows to flea markets.

Just because both sell tactical tube socks, dried meat products, and cheap Chinese knock-offs doesn't mean they're one in the same.

Apologize, Sir. Apologize!

As for promoters setting price limits, I'm not sure I agree. A table costs what a table costs. Sell the tables and let the vendors work out the supply and demand and pricing issues.

I will say that many vendors are purposefully high with the expectation that a suc...um.....customer will come by and buy on impulse with no regard to price.

The days of wheeling and dealing at a gun show are long gone. Many, not all, vendors would rather pack up every thing they brought than to sell at a minor discount and actually walk out with money in their pocket. Gotta be a legitimate business reason for this. High priced inventory means the company is worth more... Who knows.

We, as buyers, know who the good guys are and we will support them. The rest will fail eventually. And they will cluelessly wonder why.

I'm still holding out for crates of East German and North Korean made SKS rifles.

Bill,
how are WV shows compared to MD shows?
lee

I dont go to the movies much anymore, so I use that money to go to a few PA gun shows.

Its basically live entertainment seeing the latest gimmicks, hearing the tazer go off every 30 seconds, "tac dudes" with cargo pants and drop legs holster talking up their operator training program's, and various other BS you hear and see - with the addition of finding some bulk ammo for a good price, or some firearm accessory.

Can't do all that sitting in a chair in a dark room gawking a big screen

lee2 said:

Bill,
how are WV shows compared to MD shows?
lee

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Over all a little looser in what goes down and what happens. The laws in Maryland have taken far too many of your rights away with useless and some times unenforceable laws. Cost of living differences are reflected in prices of just about everything like admission, food prices, gun prices at times, lots of trading goes on in the fringes of shows here between hunters and such, table rents for the most part are slightly lower here too. There is at times a complete disregard of lesser military C&R's but this depends on the show. I use to like MD shows and was a regular over there but now with gas, laws, and travel I spend less time over there other than a certain few gun shops and honey holes. Bill

Bill can you post upcoming WV shows? I dont see any in the forum. Also can anyone pull up MD law with respect to buying in WV? Not sure where I would look.

Chriss said:

Bill can you post upcoming WV shows? I dont see any in the forum. Also can anyone pull up MD law with respect to buying in WV? Not sure where I would look.

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Same as anywhere, IIRC. Long guns can be bought from an FFL01, as long as they are MD legal. Handguns have to go through a MD FFL01. C&R is cash-and-carry if you have your FFL03.

There is MD law that MD residents can buy long guns in adjacent States, and vice versa, in compliance with Federal law, but no actual prohibition on buying in other States. (MD Code, Public Safety, § 5-204)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Name Taken said:

I certainly haven't seen "price matching" at MD shows.

In fact I wanted to buy the same rifle from one dealer as they were 5 minutes from my house compared to a hour drive.

The price difference on the same rifle was almost 200 more and the closer dealer wouldn't match it or even come down 50 bucks.

This was pre price hype and pre Oct 1 sales...this was around 2006.

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2006? So that makes it totally irrelevant now....

JamesH said:

There is MD law that MD residents can buy long guns in adjacent States, and vice versa, in compliance with Federal law, but no actual prohibition on buying in other States. (MD Code, Public Safety, § 5-204)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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You are sort of wrong.

GCA 68 restricted out of state firearms sales to only long guns, and ONLY in adjacent states, but only if your home state laws allowed this. So every state (except DE) passed laws allowing their residents to buy in adjacent states. There were some exemptions for breaking (not repairable) a firearm on a hunt or competition away from home.

FOPA 1986 removed the adjacent state restriction from the Federal law. The state laws allowing the adjacent state purchases were not removed from the codes, but most, if not all, were written so they are not restrictive (you CAN buy in adjacent staes, not that you CAN ONLY buy in adjacent states).

So basically, you can buy a long gun in any state, however the transaction (gun type) must be legal in BOTH states. Where the sale occurs and the state of residence of the buyer.

Pinecone said:

You are sort of wrong.



GCA 68 restricted out of state firearms sales to only long guns, and ONLY in adjacent states, but only if your home state laws allowed this. So every state (except DE) passed laws allowing their residents to buy in adjacent states. There were some exemptions for breaking (not repairable) a firearm on a hunt or competition away from home.



FOPA 1986 removed the adjacent state restriction from the Federal law. The state laws allowing the adjacent state purchases were not removed from the codes, but most, if not all, were written so they are not restrictive (you CAN buy in adjacent staes, not that you CAN ONLY buy in adjacent states).



So basically, you can buy a long gun in any state, however the transaction (gun type) must be legal in BOTH states. Where the sale occurs and the state of residence of the buyer.

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So, wrong in that I forgot to clarify that, as a MD resident, you can't buy a MD-banned long gun out-of-state. Otherwise essentially correct?

Chriss said:

Bill can you post upcoming WV shows? I dont see any in the forum. Also can anyone pull up MD law with respect to buying in WV? Not sure where I would look.

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Chriss the schedules have been so screwed up lately and changing so much I am scared to send you somewhere that a show has been cancelled at the last minute. All I can say is google Gun Show see what you get and then call ahead to the promoter to see if the show is going to happen or not. I almost rode about 100 miles to a show that was cancelled at the last moment down in Beckley, WV only to get an email that Saturday morning that it was cancelled. It was almost 5 minutes from when I was leaving for the show. This was an Old Dominion Gun Show. They have done this to me once in the past too. There are shows on C&E and Showmasters sites listed for Fairmont and Morgantown that I am usually at until the summer months when I quit and ride and hit music festivals, my other love! This is the best I can do without you wanting to lynch me when you see me Buddy! Bill

JamesH said:

So, wrong in that I forgot to clarify that, as a MD resident, you can't buy a MD-banned long gun out-of-state. Otherwise essentially correct?

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I was pointing out that the adjacent state laws in most states are permissive, not restrictive (you MAY buy in an adjacent state, not you may ONLY buy in an adjacent state) and were required to comply with GCA 68.

But they are not longer needed.

But yes, you cannot buy an MD-banned long gun out of state, as the Federal law requires that the purchase meet both the laws of the state where the purchase occurs and the laws of the state of residence of the buyer.

Walmart in NC had a chart showing which states' residents they could sell to and there did not seem to be adjacent rules ... various states across the country were marked. This was in or around Oct 2013. They said I could purchase being from MD but I did not, was only curious when I asked, but this was walmart so who knows what that chart really was.