Martini Henry Mrk IV: a disappointment

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    This is a response for Pat.

    The Nepalese MH rifle is officially called the MH Mark IV (in this case it is a model B). This model was done by the British for it's army, not just for Nepaleses/Indians.

    After some 11 years seeing young soldiers struggling/dying in the battle fields during South Africa, Afghanistan and Sudan campaigns/ expeditions, the War Department (WD) admitted that the MH rifles had some flaws and needed to be addressed. A few major changes were the receiver and the butt stock shape to improve the hand grip and trigger pull. They also found that the average British soldiers were not men enough so...they elongated the cocking handle to improve leverage. Some minor changes included the front sight, handguard mount, beefier cleaning rod (the Mrk II rod looks like coat hanger wire), heavier striker (to counter excessive impact that may crack the striker at it's weakest point at the slotted area, and more positive strike to help with the poor primers), smaller butt plate...(these might be done in Mark III change).

    At the end, they created an ugly, heavy, and new issues for the rifle. I think many firing striker's tip and extractors broken immaturely because of the long handle. In the old days, most soldiers fought in kneeling/standing positions so they might not know about the cumbersome of a long cocking handle. On the bench or in the prone position is a pain in the neck.

    The real problem for the rifle was the cartridge. The shape of the casing and material are not ideal and the powder is too dirt. Engineers did their best and the MH kept evolving as what we see today. After Looking at the Mrk II and the Mrk IV rifles, I keep thinking about my wife (days before the wedding and now).

    I shot the Mrk II yesterday to see how it works. It felt better than the Mrk IV with the cocking handle knob supports the gripping hand. It's also touching the pinky at all time so finding the knob to open the action is easy without looking down. On the bench, it did not require any special treatment. It's also as accurate as the Mrk IV with the tiny front sight. With the modern cartridge casing and load, I did not see any of it's handicaps.
     
    Last edited:

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Update:

    To save a great empire's history, I have to break my silent and to reveal one of my best kept secrets (this could put our service men and women in danger because our enemies still possess these rifle and even cavemen can duplicate my hand load without special tools). The attached picture will expose my handload for the MH rifles. If you already have the casing, it only cost you $.50 to reload. So get out of your couch, make some rounds and enjoy your old rifles. Let your imagination take over but please do not aim at Zulus in the area.
     

    Attachments

    • MH reload.jpg
      MH reload.jpg
      41.4 KB · Views: 411
    Last edited:

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    slow shooter, I'm curious, how do you keep the powder from moving to the bullet end of the peanut and not igniting or am I seeing this wrong?
    Bullseye or unique could not be used w/o filler?

    BTW, the curled shipping foam can be contained within a large zip lock bag and used as a seat cushion while reloading, the Cheese Curls can be consumed before or after reloading or during a "break".
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    This is the response to Melnic.

    The Biodegradable peanut is a major component of my load. It does 3 functions:
    1. keep the power at the bottom of the case (next to the primer) for reliable ignition. I normally don't use filler for lightload up to 45-70 spingfield but MH case is too big and 1.6cc or 13gr of Titewad or any shotgun power is too small.
    2. prevent the bullet from dropping into the case (if you don't necksize the case. just seat the bullet in loosely. I use 45-70 springfield trapdoor crimper to necksize the cases so I do not really need this.
    3. It substitutes for the paper patch and the bullet I use for this load really need it. I did try using other filling material but they did not work well and produced poor accuracy and funny noise. (sounded like an airburst in a copper pipe.)

    This load formula is safe and quite accurate. The best thing is you don't have to spend a lot of time cleaning the gun from black powder and lead. I use large rifle primers (the only kind I have) but I think large pistol primers could be better.

    If you can not find the biodegradable peanuts, try buffy toilet tissues (loosely fill). It might work but I am not sure (haven't tried yet.)
     

    superc

    Member
    Jun 25, 2018
    8
    I have several Martini Henry guns, both rifle and carbine variants. I use the carbine version for hunting and have taken a nice buck with it.

    I am of the suspicion your broken firing pin was already broken when you purchased the gun. I have fired many shots through my own MH guns and never had any problems. Frankly I find them to be very rugged rifles with an easy to disassemble action.

    Be careful when adding parts to the MH guns. Parts from the Mk I, II, III and IV are not interchangeable and will cause problems if you put a part from the wrong Mark into another number of Mark. Martiniman has a good series of videos about the kinds of problems that can happen when someone does that.

    The longer lever of the Mk IV was a solution to a problem that vanished anyway a few months later. Specifically originally the MH guns used what was called a foil cartridge. Sometimes a wrinkle in a cartridge case would hamper extraction. The long lever of the MK IV was to give more leverage to yank the case out anyway. However, a short time later the extruded brass cartridge case became available and the long lever became a solution to a problem that no longer existed. The shorter stroke of the MK I, Mk II, or MK III works just fine with extruded brass cases like we buy today.

    The proper load for an MH rifle is 85 grains of FF black powder under a 480 grain paper wrapped bullet. The carbines use 70 grains with a lighter bullet which is why their rear sight is a different one than those of the rifles. Firing the rifle cartridge in a carbine will result in a lot of unburnt gun powder spilling on the ground. I personally use half a cotton ball as a filler, but some folks prefer dacron fluff. There exists a danger with using cream of wheat, oatmeal or something similar as your filler. Specifically because this is a bottle necked cartridge and not straight walled, sometimes the wheat or oatmeal compresses and acts like a plug and nothing but the walls of the gun move. That can really hurt.

    There are photos online of MH rifles burst with as little as 12 grains of Unique. I can not emphasize enough these guns were only intended for black powder when in caliber 577-450. The entire production of MH Mk I - Mk IV was made of low carbon steel. The intended normal operating pressure was only about 25,000 PSI. It is also worth noting the area of the receiver called the Nock, into which the barrel is screwed only supports the rear of the cartridge. The front and the neck area where the bullet is are only surrounded by the low carbon steel barrel. That is why most of the MH rifles that burst with smokeless powder burst in that area.

    Regarding the rifles made in Nepal as copies, be advised most of them were made with what we call Damascus barrels. A ribbon of hot steel twisted around a mandrel then polished to look like a solid barrel. Most knowledgeable shooters do not shoot Nepal made Martini Henry guns, nor do they shoot the Gahendra gun. If they do, they hold their breath every time and they usually use very light loads.

    Regarding the British defeat at Isandhlwana, contrary to the History Channel TV show claims, the problems with MH rifles had very little if anything to do with the defeat. Rather instead, Lord Chelmsford was an absolute incompetent chosen as a leader because of his birth rather than ability. When you read accounts of his statements during the campaign you realize he was better suited for a life sweeping gutters than being placed in command of something important. He had 15,000 men total, but over half of them were poorly armed, untrained, native troops called the Natal Native Contingent (NNC), then he decided to split his force into 3, pitch a main camp in a bad muddy spot and at the same time not provide any circling of wagons, fire pits, trenches or any other defensive measures for the camp site. From the mountain tops the Zulu could see every move the British made on the plains below. They sent a force of 4,000 out to harry scout parties from Chelmsford's NNC heading North with instructions to retreat to the North. The ploy worked and upon getting reports Chelmsford decided that the main Zulu body was to the North and not on the mountain behind him watching every move. Chelmsford had the typical arrogance we often see in commanders whose armies haven't met a serious foe in decades. Chelmsford did not believe the Zulu Nation had any disciplined troops and truly believed that at the first sound of rifle fire any Zulu warriors would simply turn and run away for their lives. Chelmsford then took 13,700 of his men split into two columns one headed North, one headed Northwest secure in the belief he was in pursuit of the main Zulu army. Actually about 20,000 Zulu soldiers waiting on the backside of the mountain behind Chelmsford's undefended camp happily watched them leave. They then began slowly sneaking down and around the mountain towards the camp.

    Chelmsford left a brevet Lt. Colonel named Pulleine, who had no combat experience at all, in charge of the undefended camp and it's 1,300 soldiers of whom 500 were untrained and poorly armed NNC troops. Around 8am on the 22 Pulleine began to receive reports of large clusters of Zulu warriors being seen in the area, but decided they were probably pursuing Chelmsfor and his columns, so Pulleine took no defensive action. Only about 1 in 10 of his NNC troops was armed with a firearm and for most it was a Brown Bess muzzle loader. Pulleine sent word to Chelmsford that some Zulus were possibly closing on Chelmsford's column from the rear.

    At around 11am the main body of 20,000 Zulus was discovered near the camp and they immediately attacked in classic horns of the buffalo fashion. The Zulu soldiers had been ordered to ignore priests who were dressed in black. However the uniform of the British Infantry patrol dress for officers was dark blue and some British officers turned and fled on horseback leaving their men on foot behind to die. Accounts from both sides describe the end of the battle and the final gunshots in the camp as coinciding with a 2:29pm solar eclipse.

    After the battle a 5,000 man contingent of the Zulu army was sent off to pursue any survivors. They were ordered to not cross into Natal under any circumstances. At the Natal border in an old mission station called Rourke's Drift was the main British supply depot for Lord Chelmsford's folly. Pursuing survivors the Zulu contingent came upon Rourke's Drift and engaged the men there. As they were preparing to over run the camp a second contingent of Zulu troops and their commander arrived and all hostilities against the border station were immediately canceled and the Zulu soldiers withdrew back into their own country. Thus was born the legend of Rourke's Drift, the only good thing the British had done right that day.

    Two of my Martini Henrys for comparison and me shooting the carbine yesterday.
     

    Attachments

    • velocity MH Carbine.jpg
      velocity MH Carbine.jpg
      68.2 KB · Views: 293
    • comparison2.jpg
      comparison2.jpg
      57.3 KB · Views: 350
    Last edited:

    superc

    Member
    Jun 25, 2018
    8
    I should add, based on my chronograph tests with 1949 manufactured Kynoch commercial cordite rifle loads for the 577-450, the muzzle velocity of the 480 grain bullet from the rifle is about 1440 fps, while from the carbine the same ammunition generates 1250 fps average, but with much unburnt cordite laying on the ground in front of the carbine barrel.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    superc,

    Thanks for your post. There're tones of good INFO especially the load formula. About the the broken fire pin, I broke it dry firing. I have learned the expensive lesson.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,927
    Messages
    7,259,371
    Members
    33,349
    Latest member
    christian04

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom