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  • DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Option A: tell the court I followed MSP guidelines

    Option B: tell the court random person DaemonAssassin on the internet told me its true.

    Shocking I know, assertions on the internet are not admissible in court.

    Keep limiting yourself and you will be the one placing the chains on yourself. The truth is that you are wrong. If one company markets a GP barrel as HBAR, you can use that argument for another manufacturers GP barrel as affirmative defense.

    What don't you understand about that?

    To further compound this the Colt HBAR is no longer made, so therefore they are allowing "copies" of it, because if they didn't FSA2013 would be found unconstitutional, for banning a entire class of weapons.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    An you just proved the kind of person you are. Effin 13'ers, I swear are just as bad as the 16'ers and the 18'ers.

    I'll make this easy for you. There are only 2 banned barrel profiles. Pencil and the tapered under the handguard. Beyond that, all other profiles are legal. If you look at what barrel profiles were put on the 77r with the AR, you will see that it is true.

    Let's go over the visuals, shall we?



    With the above information now out there, you can see that MSP is using their "guidance" as a way to limit what we could buy originally, because very few manufacturers at the time would mark a barrel as HBAR.

    As for convincing a jury of my peers or a judge that I am right, I just proved you wrong on barrel profiles, by utilizing the criteria of the 77r, before 2013.

    Your logic is flawed. There are no banned barrels. The AR15 and all copies are banned. There is an exception for COLT HBAR's only. It is accepted that all copies of the colt hbar all also excepted. MSP guidelines go above and beyond what the law allows. They say anything that is marketed or stamped hbar is okay. You were right early on, the law does not say that anywhere. It says that anything that is not a copy of a COLT HBAR is banned. It does not say a copy of any HBAR, it says a copy of a COLT HBAR. I'll go a step further and say nothing you have is a copy of a Colt HBAR and any post 10/13 AR (DI, 5.56) that is not a colt could be successfully prosecuted.

    If you are willing to bet your freedom on your backwards logic, go for it. Sitting on here passing out bad info as fact is plain wrong and will eventually lose someones rights and/or freedom.
     
    Last edited:

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    Keep limiting yourself and you will be the one placing the chains on yourself. The truth is that you are wrong. If one company markets a GP barrel as HBAR, you can use that argument for another manufacturers GP barrel as affirmative defense.

    What don't you understand about that?

    To further compound this the Colt HBAR is no longer made, so therefore they are allowing "copies" of it, because if they didn't FSA2013 would be found unconstitutional, for banning a entire class of weapons.

    LOL, are you for real? They banned an entire class of all different firearms. Most of what was banned have no exception at all, LOL...
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Your logic is flawed. There are no banned barrels. The AR15 and all copies are banned. There is an exception for COLT HBAR's only. It is accepted that all copies of the colt hbar all also excepted. MSP guidelines go above and beyond what the law allows. They say anything that is marketed or stamped hbar is okay. You were right early on, the law does not say that anywhere. It says that anything that is not a copy of a COLT HBAR is banned. It does not say a copy of any HBAR, it says a copy of a COLT HBAR. I'll go a step further and say nothing you have is a copy of a Colt HBAR and any post 10/13 AR (DI, 5.56) that is not a colt could be successfully prosecuted.

    If you are willing to bet your freedom on your backwards logic, go for it. Sitting on here passing out bad info as fact is plain wrong and will eventually lose someones rights and/or freedom.

    Is it me or can you not see what has happened? MSP has opened the floodgates for barrels that are not clones of the Colt HBAR, because any profile that is marketed or marked as HBAR is an HBAR according to their guidance. By default, that same profile is still considered HBAR, without being marketed or marked as HBAR. It really is that simple. They can't say that the unmarked one is not an HBAR, while the marked one is, when they are both the same profile and diameters.

    As for my freedom, I'm no longer a MD resident, so for the most part MD BS will no longer apply to me.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    LOL, are you for real? They banned an entire class of all different firearms. Most of what was banned have no exception at all, LOL...

    My point with that is that there are no exceptions to the others, but the only way things were found above board with the 1994 AWB was the Colt HBAR exemption. As such it survived in MD and shows that they haven't completely banned the AR-15.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    Is it me or can you not see what has happened? MSP has opened the floodgates for barrels that are not clones of the Colt HBAR, because any profile that is marketed or marked as HBAR is an HBAR according to their guidance. By default, that same profile is still considered HBAR, without being marketed or marked as HBAR. It really is that simple. They can't say that the unmarked one is not an HBAR, while the marked one is, when they are both the same profile and diameters.

    As for my freedom, I'm no longer a MD resident, so for the most part MD BS will no longer apply to me.

    I think it is funny that you started out in this thread talking about how MSP guidance has no weight and ended up arguing that their guidance allows for other things as well.

    MSP guidance has weight but is not the end all be all. I don't know your age or how long you have been paying attention but before 10/13 the list of banned items were on the list that needed paperwork. MSP guidance said that HBAR copies of the colt, to include the evil bushmaster did not need paperwork due to the exception. It did not prevent the former owner of Valley Gun from being charged for a private transaction of a bushmaster rifle.

    As to the Md BS no longer applying to you, I am genuinely happy for you but your advice on this matter could cause someone else to lose a lot. I would wager that you don't want that and I certainly don't want that.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    My point with that is that there are no exceptions to the others, but the only way things were found above board with the 1994 AWB was the Colt HBAR exemption. As such it survived in MD and shows that they haven't completely banned the AR-15.

    It survived the 94 ban because of the reasons I PM'd you, not for the barrel. Colt tried their best to save themselves during that era.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    I think it is funny that you started out in this thread talking about how MSP guidance has no weight and ended up arguing that their guidance allows for other things as well.

    MSP guidance has weight but is not the end all be all. I don't know your age or how long you have been paying attention but before 10/13 the list of banned items were on the list that needed paperwork. MSP guidance said that HBAR copies of the colt, to include the evil bushmaster did not need paperwork due to the exception. It did not prevent the former owner of Valley Gun from being charged for a private transaction of a bushmaster rifle.

    As to the Md BS no longer applying to you, I am genuinely happy for you but your advice on this matter could cause someone else to lose a lot. I would wager that you don't want that and I certainly don't want that.

    So me asking FFL's if specific barrels were considered HBAR is not valid information, considering it would be their license on the line if they assembled it or sold it on post 10/2013 lowers? Yet here I am sharing the same information that I was given, by people that face jail time for not being perfect in everything they do.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    So me asking FFL's if specific barrels were considered HBAR is not valid information, considering it would be their license on the line if they assembled it or sold it on post 10/2013 lowers? Yet here I am sharing the same information that I was given, by people that face jail time for not being perfect in everything they do.

    Posting that there are only 2 banned profiles is not valid information. Those people that you were given info by are going by MSP guidance, something you seem to believe is not valid.

    I think with the shit sandwich this law is, MSP is doing a pretty fair job of giving guidance. Trying to argue that their guidance doesn't carry the weight of the law is going the wrong direction.

    Based on my PM, which ar lower will pass the "both cosmetically similar to and has completely interchangeable internal components necessary for the full operation and function" test of a Colt HBAR? The correct answer is "MSP guidance is a good thing."
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Is it me or can you not see what has happened? MSP has opened the floodgates for barrels that are not clones of the Colt HBAR, because any profile that is marketed or marked as HBAR is an HBAR according to their guidance. By default, that same profile is still considered HBAR, without being marketed or marked as HBAR. It really is that simple. They can't say that the unmarked one is not an HBAR, while the marked one is, when they are both the same profile and diameters.

    As for my freedom, I'm no longer a MD resident, so for the most part MD BS will no longer apply to me.

    I definitely appreciate your logic here. Parts that are equivalent to other parts that are legal are interchangeable and should be legal.

    It would be nice if you could apply fact and logic to MD law and come up with a result. However, MD assault weapons laws are more like porn: MSP knows it when they see it.

    Pre-FSA2013, the law on HBARs was not so clear either:
    (from 2013, the original thread after the law passed)
    THIS FAQ IS CURRENT WITH THE PASSED VERSION AND THE LATEST MSP MEETINGS. Full text is here.

    ...
    Q: Are all HBAR AR-15s considered to be copies of the Colt Sporter H-BAR?
    A: I've heard three different answers to this:
    1. The MFLDA was told by the MSP a long time ago that it was only with a fixed stock.
    2. The MSP says right now that it's any AR-15 with a heavy profile barrel. Early reports from the MSP meeting indicate they are going to be more specific about the required profile in the future. One MSP representative has claimed the barrel must be marked as HBAR, or mentioned as such in product literature.
    3. Some very paranoid dealers will only sell/transfer true Colt HBAR rifles.

    The second interpretation is the one that is generally accepted, but be aware that the first interpretation is still in play at some FFLs.


    We cannot really point to what FFLs were doing before FSA2013, because some were equally paranoid and would only transfer Colt HBARs with fixed stock.

    Piston ARs are another great example of the lack of clarity or logic. Is the HK MR556 a copy of the Colt AR15? NO! Why is it listed as banned? Is the Ruger mini-14 "folding stock model" the one from the 80s, or the tactical model that they sell today with the ATI folding stock? Is the ATI folder banned? What if I place the ATI folding stock on an 18" ranch rifle? is that illegal (folding stock model has 16" barrel)?

    Which is to say, facts and logic go out the window when interpreting FSA2013.

    My advice to people is not to push the envelope. The reaction to "opening the floodgates" in this state will not be, "wow, great" it will be to read your post in a committee conference and demand more common sense legislation. As people on the other side do read this board.
     

    MDEXPAT

    Active Member
    Oct 21, 2018
    111
    Which is to say, facts and logic go out the window when interpreting FSA2013.

    Not to mention those who wrote it.

    Looking at what was stricken from SB281 also reinforces your point. One paragraph says anyone registering is subject to fine if.... then the next paragraph counters the previous.

    Thankfully, such idiocy was stricken from the bill but the fact that the bill looks like it was written w/ the logic of a 3rd Grader say a lot.
     

    1ceman

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2013
    592
    FYI... an email back from Bear Creek Arsenal ...

    Sir,

    We currently do not stamp HBAR on our barrels but we are looking into adding that to our process to help it be more state compliant for the states that require a heavy barrel. We are looking at each states requirements and trying to see if we can expand our customer base. I will also let the web team know about the heavy barrel search option.

    Thanks,
    Nathan
     

    1ceman

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2013
    592
    I ended up ordering 3 different 223 Wild barrels from Bear Creek Arsenal which all look good quality. Only issue is the sent me 1 that was completely wrong from what I ordered. After contacting them she said it would have to go to warranty dept, (even though it was wrong one sent) and take them at least 1-2 weeks just to get an RMA to START the process to either refund or exchange it. I was going to exchange it but since they want to take so long, I am ordering elsewhere, and will return it for a refund.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I think it is funny that you started out in this thread talking about how MSP guidance has no weight and ended up arguing that their guidance allows for other things as well.

    MSP guidance has weight but is not the end all be all. I don't know your age or how long you have been paying attention but before 10/13 the list of banned items were on the list that needed paperwork. MSP guidance said that HBAR copies of the colt, to include the evil bushmaster did not need paperwork due to the exception. It did not prevent the former owner of Valley Gun from being charged for a private transaction of a bushmaster rifle.

    As to the Md BS no longer applying to you, I am genuinely happy for you but your advice on this matter could cause someone else to lose a lot. I would wager that you don't want that and I certainly don't want that.

    To jump in a few weeks late, Bushmaster rifle’s are banned by name. That’s why. The law says a firearms that is parts interchangeable with a banned firearm is a copy cat and banned. Yes, it doesn’t say one that is parts interchangeable is allowed. MSP is interpreting the law.

    As the law is written and the fact that most FFLs in Maryland will sell heavy barreled ARs chambered in .223/5.56 and MSP guidance says that should be righteous, it would be one hell of a stretch to see a successful conviction and it would take a DA with a hell of an axe to grind to bring charges.

    Mens Rea would be allow over this one. “Okay, we have an official government entity giving guidance this is okay. The body tasked with enforcing the law! Yes they say their guidance is not the law, but if you can’t place trust in their guidance, where can you?!?”

    It might not protect you from having your stuff confiscated some day if the interpretation changes...but it should at least cover your butt on a conviction.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    To jump in a few weeks late, Bushmaster rifle’s are banned by name. That’s why. The law says a firearms that is parts interchangeable with a banned firearm is a copy cat and banned. Yes, it doesn’t say one that is parts interchangeable is allowed. MSP is interpreting the law.

    As the law is written and the fact that most FFLs in Maryland will sell heavy barreled ARs chambered in .223/5.56 and MSP guidance says that should be righteous, it would be one hell of a stretch to see a successful conviction and it would take a DA with a hell of an axe to grind to bring charges.

    Mens Rea would be allow over this one. “Okay, we have an official government entity giving guidance this is okay. The body tasked with enforcing the law! Yes they say their guidance is not the law, but if you can’t place trust in their guidance, where can you?!?”

    It might not protect you from having your stuff confiscated some day if the interpretation changes...but it should at least cover your butt on a conviction.

    The rifle they are referring to is made by Gwinn Firearms and has no relation to Bushmaster Firearms. At the time the law was written in the early 90's, Bushmaster Firearms didn't even exist, IIRC.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    I ended up ordering 3 different 223 Wild barrels from Bear Creek Arsenal which all look good quality. Only issue is the sent me 1 that was completely wrong from what I ordered. After contacting them she said it would have to go to warranty dept, (even though it was wrong one sent) and take them at least 1-2 weeks just to get an RMA to START the process to either refund or exchange it. I was going to exchange it but since they want to take so long, I am ordering elsewhere, and will return it for a refund.

    Good luck.
     

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