How much training do you ACTUALLY need?

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  • fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Fortunately, there are not many "shootouts" going on in public places, restaurants and the like. "Marksmanship" training, not a lot is needed. A complete novice can hit a target 5-7 yards pretty easy. Situational awareness and your proximity to the threat is key to a "shootout".


    ...

    Good to see you back, my friend.

    That was a Fabs' length post, lol. Bookmarking for later. :)

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    I was going to post regarding the OP's first Post , but then GoldGunsGirls post is a topic in itself , So I'm going to do two .


    How much training/ skills/ preparation / etc is necessary , depends on how much faith you place in " Probably " . You probably won't need a firearm at all. Or a spare tire. Or car insurance . Or a fire extinguisher . Or a smoke detector. Or first aid or CPR skills . Or know how to swim. And so forth , but most prudent people consider most of them wise .

    Going with Probabilities , concern yourself with 1 or 2 average dirt bags , at accross the room distances, with pistols of reasonably adaquate power, and ignore the possibilities of terrorists, entire chapters of 1%'ers on a rampage, invading Russian paratroopers, or Las Vegas style shooters .

    Notwithstanding the occasional instances of totally untrained and unknowledgable people picking up a firearm for the first and prevailing in a gunfight , they are freak outliers .

    Some training and skills are better than zero .
    Further training and skills with firearms beyond " sorta adaquate " have a steep curve of diminishing returns .

    As Blaster eloquently said , marginal increases in awareness and observations is waaaay more important that marginal increases in shooting skill ( so long as minimally adaquate ) .

    Initial goal is basic skills done marginally acceptably .
    Higher goal is basic skills done increasingly well .
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    Unfortunately self defense shootings aren't done with 15 rounds slow fire at 21 feet. That requires no critical thinking.
    I think the purpose of the post is the thinking game and not the trigger pulling game. I guarantee you can't do that in a crowded theatre in the dark with 300 people running around.
    The real training is what will you do when a threat is in any area of that theatre?

    Set your mind before worrying about trigger reset.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Right. It would be more relevant to me if he had said 15 rd./10mm/ 21'/ 10 seconds. From that I would have a idea what his real skill level is. Having never shot 10mm but having shot .357Sig out of an HK USP Compact in competition I figure my time would be around 7 sec give or take some fractions. Shooting one target fast is not that hard. Shooting and hitting 3-5 targets in the same time as one target with the same number of rounds is a skill you need to cultivate. Its doing that drill until I could virtually match the times is the reason I am the shooter I am today.
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    I was going to post regarding the OP's first Post , but then GoldGunsGirls post is a topic in itself , So I'm going to do two .


    How much training/ skills/ preparation / etc is necessary , depends on how much faith you place in " Probably " . You probably won't need a firearm at all. Or a spare tire. Or car insurance . Or a fire extinguisher . Or a smoke detector. Or first aid or CPR skills . Or know how to swim. And so forth , but most prudent people consider most of them wise .

    Going with Probabilities , concern yourself with 1 or 2 average dirt bags , at accross the room distances, with pistols of reasonably adaquate power, and ignore the possibilities of terrorists, entire chapters of 1%'ers on a rampage, invading Russian paratroopers, or Las Vegas style shooters .

    Notwithstanding the occasional instances of totally untrained and unknowledgable people picking up a firearm for the first and prevailing in a gunfight , they are freak outliers .

    Some training and skills are better than zero .
    Further training and skills with firearms beyond " sorta adaquate " have a steep curve of diminishing returns .

    As Blaster eloquently said , marginal increases in awareness and observations is waaaay more important that marginal increases in shooting skill ( so long as minimally adaquate ) .

    Initial goal is basic skills done marginally acceptably .
    Higher goal is basic skills done increasingly well .

    I would agree with that. The key to all sports, life, combat, etc. is to speed up your brain so you have the most subjective time to make clear and precise decisions in any situation. Sounds easy but its not. Perception of speed is the real difference between those who are really good and those who are merely adequate at some activity.
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    303
    Northern VA
    ...Thus, he told me I need to start taking classes where I am thinking/problem-solving with a gun in my hand,...

    I'm not sure classes are the answer, but I'm convinced being able to run the gun without having to think about running the gun is a critical skill. By not having to think about handling and firing the gun, you free your brain to focus on the situation and how to deal with it.

    If one wants the ability to use a handgun for defensive purposes, learning how to fire multiple shots quickly with reasonable accuracy is a must. After all, most handguns are pretty anemic threat stoppers and more than one or two shots will likely be needed.

    One of the real pluses of competing in action pistol is that it provides an opportunity to gain proficiency in running the gun at speed with reasonable accuracy. Also, as you stated, competition provides the motivation to put in the practice work to get better.
     
    Fortunately, there are not many "shootouts" going on in public places, restaurants and the like. "Marksmanship" training, not a lot is needed. A complete novice can hit a target 5-7 yards pretty easy. Situational awareness and your proximity to the threat is key to a "shootout".

    Shooting someone is the easy part. Parsing who to not shoot and when to shoot the one who needs to be shot is the hard part.

    Awareness.
    Be cognizant of the people moving out and about you. In every social setting you enter, there is a baseline behavior of the people there(you)for the most part, others should be doing what you are doing. Starbucks for example, people are sitting around on their laptops and phones(like I am) and drinking coffee. People are coming, going to the counter, waiting in line, getting coffee and leaving. That's the baseline behavior of the occupants in that environment. If someone comes through the door and just stands there(not within the baseline), well you might have something, and then you should start thinking about how you're going to your weapon.
    If you see someone come in and go straight to the rest room, well that's sometimes usual, but they could be going directly in there to stage their nerves before breaking bad. Keep an eye out until they leave or go make their order.
    Be alert to these things.

    Proximity to the threat. Can you take that shot at that distance?
    So you've been aware the whole time drinking your coffee watching for people outside the baseline behavior of the coffee shop. You've been a good alert person. You have gone through your mind the "what if's" of someone breaking bad.
    Each scenario is entrance/exit dependent, where you are in relation to those and the threat. Their entrance/your exit.
    In the photo, I am sitting in the corner. I am facing the farthest door from me and there is another door about 8 feet to my right. The bathrooms are near that far door as well.
    I'll just say this right now, if someone bursts through the door to my right and just starts shooting, I probably have zero chance. Or a not so good chance.

    Someone comes through the far door, there are choices. I could probably easily make it escaping through the door to my right.
    or
    I can address the threat. This is where it comes down to brass tacks (whatever that means). I am confident in my training and experience to do something If I am feeling frisky at that moment.
    People, if they aren't falling down dying from being shot, are running towards the door to my right. If I saw the threat enter early enough, I can assess and do a discreet slow draw. I know my limitations, and I am not making a 30-40 ft? shot at a moving threat while people are running in front of me. But I can get up at the right moment, advance towards the corner of the counter in front of me(to close the distance for accuracy) and take shot. 20 feet, is very hard to miss.

    Long winded I know, but all of that to say that you don't need a shit ton of training to make a 20 foot center mass shot. But you do need to recognize when/if/you can/want to take that shot. Most,if any "training" out there does not prepare for what you'll actually have to do in a situation.

    But you can "train" yourself everyday going about your life picturing scenarios everywhere you go and "what If ing". That is what will be more relevant than drawing and making a shot under 1 second while on a static firing line.

    Awesome post. And this isn't something that would require being in a constant state of paranoia. Most of these assessments are made in a matter of seconds.

    Whatever one wants to call it: paranoia, situational awareness, head on a swivel, etc. Blaster hit the nail on the head.
    When out with friends, people bust my chops for wanting to sit with my back to a wall, noting entry/exit points, scanning the crowd, etc.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    Whatever one wants to call it: paranoia, situational awareness, head on a swivel, etc. Blaster hit the nail on the head.

    When out with friends, people bust my chops for wanting to sit with my back to a wall, noting entry/exit points, scanning the crowd, etc.
    Getting ready to get on a plane right now. Sucks. I got nuthin'. LOL
    The bright side is, I can sleep.

    That being said, took me like 3 minutes to check my pistola in.
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    Whatever one wants to call it: paranoia, situational awareness, head on a swivel, etc. Blaster hit the nail on the head.
    When out with friends, people bust my chops for wanting to sit with my back to a wall, noting entry/exit points, scanning the crowd, etc.

    My wife always gives me sh!t when I ask her to switch seats at a restaurant so I can sit in a better position to scan the room and react to a threat. She's been getting better now though and a lot of times she asks me which seat I want before she sits down.
     
    Whatever one wants to call it: paranoia, situational awareness, head on a swivel, etc. Blaster hit the nail on the head.
    When out with friends, people bust my chops for wanting to sit with my back to a wall, noting entry/exit points, scanning the crowd, etc.

    Getting ready to get on a plane right now. Sucks. I got nuthin'. LOL
    The bright side is, I can sleep.

    That being said, took me like 3 minutes to check my pistola in.

    My wife always gives me sh!t when I ask her to switch seats at a restaurant so I can sit in a better position to scan the room and react to a threat. She's been getting better now though and a lot of times she asks me which seat I want before she sits down.

    When we first started dating, my wife thought it was weird too. She told her dad (retired LEO) about it and he explained it was a good thing and why.
    She calls it "The Paranoid Seat", but now understands why I want it.
     

    jbrown50

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 18, 2014
    3,471
    DC
    Spot on post Blaster229. I'd expect nothing less from a retired FAM.

    It reminds me of this dialogue quoted from the movie western 'Lawman':

    Sabbath Marshal Cotton Ryan: In every town Maddox has worked, the ground is full of men who were faster.

    Crowe Wheelwright: Yeah, well, I really am. And I aim to prove it, too.

    Sabbath Marshal Cotton Ryan: It makes a great epitaph. You may be faster, Crowe. You may be better with a gun, but Maddox will kill you... and that's a fact. You'll be staring up at nothing before your gun ever got clear.
     

    cpo

    hmmm......
    Aug 3, 2018
    128
    Central Maryland
    When we first started dating, my wife thought it was weird too. She told her dad (retired LEO) about it and he explained it was a good thing and why.
    She calls it "The Paranoid Seat", but now understands why I want it.
    I was LEO when my wife and I met... And my son was born while I was still on the job...so it's always been that way for both of them since day one. Many years later, they know where I'm going to sit, and when we are out with friends, they are the ones to make sure the right side of the table is left open. I just smile and take my paranoid back to the wall seat.
     

    trailman

    Active Member
    Nov 15, 2011
    631
    Frederick
    What's crazy is the guys who do operate at an alpha operator level only really practice the basics and master the fundamentals.

    Keller told us before a deploy all he would do for months leading up are standard ready up drills on 3 inch and 6 inch circles from 10 to 15 yards. And he rarely shot on the range for more than an hour a day, due to fatigue and training scars then developing. All the hopping over cars bs, shooting upside down with one arm behind your back, and sprint before shooting stuff was just that...stuff. At the end of the day a shot, no matter the situation or position will come down to sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze.

    And it's all true. We do very little steel work in his classes and constant reps of ready up drills and offhand shooting. Barely any moving and shooting.

    But by the end of the 2nd day everyone in the class had their time and accuracy improve in the moving and shooting steel drills by at least 5 sometimes 10 seconds. And the weather the 2nd day compared to the first was pure ass. Thunderstorms all day, rain and fog.

    ^^-----
    I've got several hundred hours of training under my belt, and I've been extremely lucky to have some face to face training with some active SF groups. This above is so true its not even funny. They have no secret squirrel shit they just do it so much it's without thought. If anyone reads Moseby, you work steel (since it reacts) 8" at 50 yds then 6" at 50 yds then 6" at 100 so on and so on. 3 sec reaction time then two second reaction time. I watched the SF team work its way through a wooded area, no sound just looks, like ghosts. And its all basic, reaction time shoot moving etc, fundamentals that you learn in boot camp, just practiced. Get GOOD basics training then practice the hell out of them.
     

    trailman

    Active Member
    Nov 15, 2011
    631
    Frederick
    Fortunately, there are not many "shootouts" going on in public places, restaurants and the like. "Marksmanship" training, not a lot is needed. A complete novice can hit a target 5-7 yards pretty easy. Situational awareness and your proximity to the threat is key to a "shootout".

    Shooting someone is the easy part. Parsing who to not shoot and when to shoot the one who needs to be shot is the hard part.

    Awareness.
    Be cognizant of the people moving out and about you. In every social setting you enter, there is a baseline behavior of the people there(you)for the most part, others should be doing what you are doing. Starbucks for example, people are sitting around on their laptops and phones(like I am) and drinking coffee. People are coming, going to the counter, waiting in line, getting coffee and leaving. That's the baseline behavior of the occupants in that environment. If someone comes through the door and just stands there(not within the baseline), well you might have something, and then you should start thinking about how you're going to your weapon.
    If you see someone come in and go straight to the rest room, well that's sometimes usual, but they could be going directly in there to stage their nerves before breaking bad. Keep an eye out until they leave or go make their order.
    Be alert to these things.

    Proximity to the threat. Can you take that shot at that distance?
    So you've been aware the whole time drinking your coffee watching for people outside the baseline behavior of the coffee shop. You've been a good alert person. You have gone through your mind the "what if's" of someone breaking bad.
    Each scenario is entrance/exit dependent, where you are in relation to those and the threat. Their entrance/your exit.
    In the photo, I am sitting in the corner. I am facing the farthest door from me and there is another door about 8 feet to my right. The bathrooms are near that far door as well.
    I'll just say this right now, if someone bursts through the door to my right and just starts shooting, I probably have zero chance. Or a not so good chance.

    Someone comes through the far door, there are choices. I could probably easily make it escaping through the door to my right.
    or
    I can address the threat. This is where it comes down to brass tacks (whatever that means). I am confident in my training and experience to do something If I am feeling frisky at that moment.
    People, if they aren't falling down dying from being shot, are running towards the door to my right. If I saw the threat enter early enough, I can assess and do a discreet slow draw. I know my limitations, and I am not making a 30-40 ft? shot at a moving threat while people are running in front of me. But I can get up at the right moment, advance towards the corner of the counter in front of me(to close the distance for accuracy) and take shot. 20 feet, is very hard to miss.

    Long winded I know, but all of that to say that you don't need a shit ton of training to make a 20 foot center mass shot. But you do need to recognize when/if/you can/want to take that shot. Most,if any "training" out there does not prepare for what you'll actually have to do in a situation.

    But you can "train" yourself everyday going about your life picturing scenarios everywhere you go and "what If ing". That is what will be more relevant than drawing and making a shot under 1 second while on a static firing line.

    This is excellent advice.
     

    cpo

    hmmm......
    Aug 3, 2018
    128
    Central Maryland
    In my opinion, the value of "marksmanship" or "static range" training is developing a confidence in the fact that you can make the shot. 7 yds, 15 yds, 25 yds... Are you capable of consistently putting bullets where you intend with a reasonable margin of error? When/if there is ever a need to leverage that special set of skills... you don't want to just then be wondering how you'll do (not that you'll put any actual thought into it). I think about that food vendor in Florida who stopped the active shooter in a park with a head shot to the bad guy... that takes some confidence, and that comes from spending time at the range working out those fundamentals. And that goes directly to that "Proximity to the threat. Can you take the shot at that distance?" part of Blaster229's post.
     

    Hansum

    Member
    Feb 14, 2019
    62
    The desire to spend more on tactical training comes from your passion to learn something new and useful. If it's something you enjoy and has utility, it's money well spent. I'd wager it's also addictive to take these courses especially when someone particularly badass is teaching them. I could think of worse vices.

    Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
     

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