Lee Enfield whats the story

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  • 9banger

    Member
    Jan 28, 2019
    1
    So I got this old Lee Enfield from my uncle. He got it from a guy who’s brother was in the army in the pacific theater. Supposedly the brother brought it back from the war and that’s how it got the cuts to Decommission it. But it’s pretty obvious to me it’s sporterized. Why would some one bother sporterizing a rifle you can’t use from ww2? What kinda idiot does that? But then I got to thinking maybe it’s a Jungle Carbine version of the enfield with maybe missing wood or something that dudes in the field would just take off. Kinda like the heat shield on 240s. I don’t know that’s why I’m asking y’all. Barrel length is 23 in.

    Edit: Also anybody who can tell if that’s an og sling on it or just some piece of crap? Definitely looks as old as the gun.
     

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    Last edited:

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    I'll take a shot at this. First the sling looks to be original, can't tell the color could be blue or green. The side of the receiver indicates it was made in '44 at long branch in Canada but that almost looks struck out with a line, could just be the photo. It is a #4 Mark I* and looks to have the cut out on the rail for the bolt removal. It also has what looks like a 3 (F). The F I think would indicate Fazerkaly factory in Britain and I can't tell from the photo but may have been converted there to Mark 2. The England mark I think was only stamped on the rifles if they were imported, but if it went through some military bring back it may have been stamped, but I have not read of this being done. Never seen one cut up that way before.

    I would suspect/suggest it was not a bring back from WWII but an import that was "sporterized" and for some reason was deemed unsafe and hacked up to keep someone from being injured. A closer photo of the rear of the fore end near the butt socket would give better idea of if it is a Mark 1 or 2. Oh, and I can't see it well in the photo but the front sight does not look original. Hope this helps.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Agree that it was FTR'ed to the No2 standard (upgraded trigger), which would make it's designation No. 4 MK 1/3 at Fazakerly in 1954. You can also tell by the round hole for the screw in the stock above the trigger. In MK 1's and MK 1*'s, the cut out would have been elongated and square on the back. It's been sported (evident by the new front sight) and definitely not a jungle carbine. In its condition, I'd say its barely an Enfield :sad20: The sling might be the best part.

    ETA Maybe what I assumed to be the FTR date of 1954 is actually the serial number 1854? I'm not as familiar with Long Branch. The Factory Thorough Repair that added the /3 certainly happened in the 1950's, so I'm pretty sure no one carried it right back from the Pacific Theatre.

    Also, I was kidding about the sling. It looks right, and the magazine and rear sight (assuming it was upgraded) are probably worth a little more than the sling ;)
     
    Last edited:

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    Wonder why someone chopped it? A few bits of parts are only left now. If your going to unload it, just say.


    In thinking about this, the only thing that comes to mind is someone drilling a hole for a scope base drilled into the chamber and when they realized what they had done, cut the rifle with a saw so someone would not fire it and cause an injury or massive failure of the rifle. That's all I got. Course, if you want to spend the money for a new barrel and welding it might be repairable, but another #4 may be less costly.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Did the bolt front survive? If it did, what is the number on it? Some numbers are in high demand cause that is how they compensate for headspace.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,736
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Here is my take. The stock was cut to get the rifle home in a duffel bag after the action is removed from the stock. It is called a Duffle Cut for that reason. ( I have first hand knowledge that this was still being used during the Vietnam War) ;)

    This rifle could have been a WWII bring back and could have been sporterized and used for hunting by someone.

    As for the demil job. When I had my gunsmithing business, it was not unusual to make cuts in the receiver and log the gun as "destroyed." It was also common place that small police departments would bring weapons to be destroyed and they got cuts as well. I know today the process for making a firearm "destroyed" is more complex but this is how it was done in the '70's and 80's. The only firearm we had to torch cut were machine guns.

    That's my two cents.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Here is my take. The stock was cut to get the rifle home in a duffel bag after the action is removed from the stock. It is called a Duffle Cut for that reason. ( I have first hand knowledge that this was still being used during the Vietnam War) ;)

    This rifle could have been a WWII bring back and could have been sporterized and used for hunting by someone.

    As for the demil job. When I had my gunsmithing business, it was not unusual to make cuts in the receiver and log the gun as "destroyed." It was also common place that small police departments would bring weapons to be destroyed and they got cuts as well. I know today the process for making a firearm "destroyed" is more complex but this is how it was done in the '70's and 80's. The only firearm we had to torch cut were machine guns.

    That's my two cents.

    To get the /3 upgrades and markings, it would have to have been in England (at the Fazakerly factory, I believe to get the (F) ) sometime after March 31, 1949, so I am highly skeptical of it being a bring back...at least from WW2. Maybe it found its way to Korea or Vietnam and came back from there :shrug:

    Doing a little research and looking more closely at the numbers, I'm thinking there is a very faint "52" and maybe an "L" at the beginning, which could be the date of the FTR. The electropenned "1854" would be the the serial number, applied at the time of FTR (presumably 1952). It probably has that number stamped on the wrist as well from 1944, although it could be worn off.


    Aside from being heartbreaking, that demil job is a little scary. Was anything done to prevent a round being chambered, like a pin through the chamber or something? Did you do anything like that, John? From what we see in the pictures...it looks like it could fire one more time and it's just the honor system keeping it from blowing up. Or...since the locking lugs are in the rear...I wonder if it really would come apart? I am absolutely not advocating shooting it...just speculating.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Yeah, she's an organ donor now. A sad end for a No4 Mk 1/3.
    Might be a Mk1 sight. :shrug: Magazine, bolt body, trigger guard, buttplate, sling and 1 swivel. The buttstock looks sanded to me, but there might be $100 or so worth of parts if somebody needs them. What a shame. :sad20:

    Did the bolt front survive? If it did, what is the number on it? Some numbers are in high demand cause that is how they compensate for headspace.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It looks like a "3" so not really worth getting excited over.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,736
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Well, I made several guns into working non shooters by welding a rod in the chamber. Mostly these were from WWII vets who wanted to pass the rifles onto younger grand kids but didn't want them to get hurt. :facepalm:

    As for cutting the receivers, any gun that I did that too was disassembled and I kept the good parts. I never just made chamber cuts and threw away a whole rifle. I used to take my metal stuff to the junkyard when I got a couple hundred pounds and made a few bucks off it. I worked on probably a couple thousand milsurps over the years and am still finding parts around the house till this day. :lol:
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Well, I made several guns into working non shooters by welding a rod in the chamber. Mostly these were from WWII vets who wanted to pass the rifles onto younger grand kids but didn't want them to get hurt. :facepalm:

    As for cutting the receivers, any gun that I did that too was disassembled and I kept the good parts. I never just made chamber cuts and threw away a whole rifle. I used to take my metal stuff to the junkyard when I got a couple hundred pounds and made a few bucks off it. I worked on probably a couple thousand milsurps over the years and am still finding parts around the house till this day. :lol:

    :eek:Darn, John!...you think you know somebody! :sad20: I'll find a way to forgive you...just please don't tell me you've ever milled the "ears" off of an M1917. I don't want to know...:o
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,736
    Socialist State of Maryland
    When I grew up in the '50s and '60's we would pick Mausers and Sprinfields out of barrels for $5 -$10 each. My first centerfire was a '93 Spanish Mauser in 7x57. It was one hell of a gun!

    I never thought those days would go but they have. :sad20:
     

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    From the pics I can't tell if the cut above the chamber is actually in the chamber. I would think a skilled smith could weld that cut, check the head space and the rifle "may" be able to be used with light reloads. This would depend on other damage that may be done under the fore end we can't see. Hopefully the numbers on the bolt handle match the ones on the side and still has a good fit. As said the cut to the receiver may not matter as the bolt has rear locking lugs and they would not be affected. As to the date of the work at Faz, I think I recall dates being added after the (F). More pics would be helpful.
     

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