Eastern_Water_Moccasin
Member
- Dec 7, 2018
- 61
haha
Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop
- Thread starter cpo
- Start date
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Eastern_Water_Moccasin
Member
- Dec 7, 2018
- 61
Gettin back to the lecture at hand, I think the FBI made a poor choice in going back to 9mm.
The Gingivitis Death Nails are always an excellent self-defense choice as well. Unfortunately in Maryland you're limited to ten nails however.
Name Taken
Ultimate Member
16 times? Were they shot on Dr. Scalia's operating table?
The vast majority of murders in Baltimore are a lot less than 16 hits. They all must be using .40 not crappy Davis .25's, .32's, 9mm etc.
Eastern_Water_Moccasin
Member
- Dec 7, 2018
- 61
It was actually DC. Maybe those Baltimore bullets are more gooder than ours.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,173
This isn't * A * discussion , this is more simultaneous discussions than even the perennial " How to Transport in Maryland " Threads .
* Disclaimer - I don't even like .40 *
Random true statements :
No matter how you are defining More Betterer , you can't totally generalize by calibers , as certain specific loads will overlap in particular criteria .
9mm ( with proper loads ) is reasonably effective .
9mm is a viable option for LE duty pistols
In the absolute literal sense 9mm < .40S&W < .45acp , with top performing loads for each. ( Note that I deliberately don't mention .357Sig, .357Mag, or full power 10mm )
But the differences between the above three aren't huge , are less than the variation between loads within a caliber , and buncha other factors are important in selecting Duty Pistols / calibers .
There are a zillion factors potentially in play in selecting duty pistol/ caliber , and minor terminal ballistics differences are far down the priorities of decision makers .
Cost of guns.
Percieved training costs .
What does XYZ Agency use ?
Could be referring to FBI , or a large state or local agency with regional influence , or even smaller neighboring agencies . ( Few agencies will select unique choices in a vacuum . I've heard direct quotes to the effect of " oh yeah , who uses xyz Around Here ? " )
* Disclaimer - I don't even like .40 *
Random true statements :
No matter how you are defining More Betterer , you can't totally generalize by calibers , as certain specific loads will overlap in particular criteria .
9mm ( with proper loads ) is reasonably effective .
9mm is a viable option for LE duty pistols
In the absolute literal sense 9mm < .40S&W < .45acp , with top performing loads for each. ( Note that I deliberately don't mention .357Sig, .357Mag, or full power 10mm )
But the differences between the above three aren't huge , are less than the variation between loads within a caliber , and buncha other factors are important in selecting Duty Pistols / calibers .
There are a zillion factors potentially in play in selecting duty pistol/ caliber , and minor terminal ballistics differences are far down the priorities of decision makers .
Cost of guns.
Percieved training costs .
What does XYZ Agency use ?
Could be referring to FBI , or a large state or local agency with regional influence , or even smaller neighboring agencies . ( Few agencies will select unique choices in a vacuum . I've heard direct quotes to the effect of " oh yeah , who uses xyz Around Here ? " )
kalister1
R.I.P.
I know a guy who knows a guy!
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,173
Our Herpetoligist friend is recycling 3 generations of .45 Hardball folklore , with a substitution of .40 for .45 .
The .45acp is not sure whether to be flattered, or insulted .
The .45acp is not sure whether to be flattered, or insulted .
Eastern_Water_Moccasin
Member
- Dec 7, 2018
- 61
We'll see when the 9mm fad goes away and what you sheep will follow next
Wow 29 posts and the personal attacks begin.
A feeling of disturbance in the force I feel.
.
Attachments
PO2012
Active Member
- Oct 24, 2013
- 815
I've carried duty handguns in both 9mm and .40 S&W and I would go with the .40 S&W any day of the week.
The difference in recoil between the two rounds is insignificant in my opinion. In my experience Police recruits who have trouble shooting a handgun in .40 S&W have trouble mastering the fundamentals for the following reasons:
a) the wrong mindset
b) failure to follow instructions
c) poor quality of instruction
A lot of new Officers have never used a firearm at any point in their life and they're either scared of the weapon or think they know it all. When they get out on the range the results are predictable. In some cases, performance suffers due to poor instructor quality but that's the exception rather than the rule. It boils down to a lack of determination and arrogance. My wife is tiny and she was able to successfully qualify with a Glock 22 during her Academy training. If she can do it, any able bodied person can. The argument that the .40 S&W is unfair to women and small framed men is BS. It's an excuse for poor recruits and/or poor instructors. The Glock 22 and similar pistols are not self propelled artillery pieces.
I've been involved in and/or responded to quite a few Police involved shootings. I've seen the results of the .40 S&W first hand. It's performance is exceptional, in all respects as good as can be expected from any non-exotic pistol caliber cartridge. Barrier penetration is excellent. For civilians, that may not be a consideration but for Police, your round has to reliably punch through car doors and auto glass. My particular agency ditched the Glock 17 for a number of reasons, one of which was because the Winchester Ranger ammunition it was using was failing to incapacitate suspects even with head shots. We had several instances where offenders were shot in the face at close range and were able to continue fighting. No such performance has been observed since the transition to 40 S&W. We see much the same result in criminal gunfights. Serious felons are carrying handguns chambered for .40 S&W and .45ACP. Do we see homicides where the victim was shot with a .380 or a 9mm? Yes but with Doctor Scalea and his team at Shock Trauma the numbers are steadily declining. Most of the victims I see hit with smaller cartridges are making it to the hospital and surviving. Those hit with the 40 S&W and .45ACP are being instantly incapacitated and dying where they fall. Shot placement is a factor but so is caliber. Far more victims who are shot in the head with .380s are surviving than victims shot in the head with .40s.
When I went from a 9mm to a .40 I was skeptical but I've come to love the round. I would hate to go back to 9mm.
The difference in recoil between the two rounds is insignificant in my opinion. In my experience Police recruits who have trouble shooting a handgun in .40 S&W have trouble mastering the fundamentals for the following reasons:
a) the wrong mindset
b) failure to follow instructions
c) poor quality of instruction
A lot of new Officers have never used a firearm at any point in their life and they're either scared of the weapon or think they know it all. When they get out on the range the results are predictable. In some cases, performance suffers due to poor instructor quality but that's the exception rather than the rule. It boils down to a lack of determination and arrogance. My wife is tiny and she was able to successfully qualify with a Glock 22 during her Academy training. If she can do it, any able bodied person can. The argument that the .40 S&W is unfair to women and small framed men is BS. It's an excuse for poor recruits and/or poor instructors. The Glock 22 and similar pistols are not self propelled artillery pieces.
I've been involved in and/or responded to quite a few Police involved shootings. I've seen the results of the .40 S&W first hand. It's performance is exceptional, in all respects as good as can be expected from any non-exotic pistol caliber cartridge. Barrier penetration is excellent. For civilians, that may not be a consideration but for Police, your round has to reliably punch through car doors and auto glass. My particular agency ditched the Glock 17 for a number of reasons, one of which was because the Winchester Ranger ammunition it was using was failing to incapacitate suspects even with head shots. We had several instances where offenders were shot in the face at close range and were able to continue fighting. No such performance has been observed since the transition to 40 S&W. We see much the same result in criminal gunfights. Serious felons are carrying handguns chambered for .40 S&W and .45ACP. Do we see homicides where the victim was shot with a .380 or a 9mm? Yes but with Doctor Scalea and his team at Shock Trauma the numbers are steadily declining. Most of the victims I see hit with smaller cartridges are making it to the hospital and surviving. Those hit with the 40 S&W and .45ACP are being instantly incapacitated and dying where they fall. Shot placement is a factor but so is caliber. Far more victims who are shot in the head with .380s are surviving than victims shot in the head with .40s.
When I went from a 9mm to a .40 I was skeptical but I've come to love the round. I would hate to go back to 9mm.
Hmm, experience and knowledge speaking...may have to check .40 out.
So I'm not able to get much into details, but my department just traded all our Glock .40s for Glock 9s. We had some failures that led to accidental discharges, Glock replaced them ALL without question. It turns out that the .40 created a lot of pressure, leading to premature part failures.
Our department firearms and swat tested caliber rounds and came to the conclusion that the speer g2 9mm penetrated better and expanded better than our federal hydrashock .40. Whether it's true or not, who knows. Officers carried 6 shot .38 revolvers shortly before I came on... having 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm is a vast improvement in my mind.
Shot placement and rounds on target are far more important to me than a slightly larger caliber. Hopefully this is all for naught for me, as I hope and pray to never shoot anything besides paper or steel targets!
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Our department firearms and swat tested caliber rounds and came to the conclusion that the speer g2 9mm penetrated better and expanded better than our federal hydrashock .40. Whether it's true or not, who knows. Officers carried 6 shot .38 revolvers shortly before I came on... having 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm is a vast improvement in my mind.
Shot placement and rounds on target are far more important to me than a slightly larger caliber. Hopefully this is all for naught for me, as I hope and pray to never shoot anything besides paper or steel targets!
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Last edited:
TheOriginalMexicanBob
Ultimate Member
When I was a federal law enforcement officer I spent most of my years issued a S&W Model 64 .38 Special...I never felt underarmed with it and was very confident of my abilities with it. When I changed agencies I was issued a S&W 4046 .40 caliber. I liked the round...hated the pistol. I called it the S&W "Boat Anchor" model. Everyone who was issued that pistol saw their previous scores with a revolver go down...it was a more difficult handgun to shoot well. I would have gladly traded it for my previous S&W revolver...but I wasn't given the opportunity...the only choice was single-stack or double-stack.
It doesn't always come down to caliber. I would have preferred a .45 but that's just me. I think a law enforcement agency can write a good firearms policy where a officer can provide his or her personally owned handgun within certain parameters and still be liability compliant for the agency.
In the end, regardless of caliber...9mm, ,38, .40, 10mm, .45...it comes down to marksmanship. A hit with a .38 is better than a loud miss with a .44 Magnum...only hits count. While there are differences between different calibers and different loadings within each caliber...you have to hit the target first in a spot that can cause immediate stopping of the criminal act.
It doesn't always come down to caliber. I would have preferred a .45 but that's just me. I think a law enforcement agency can write a good firearms policy where a officer can provide his or her personally owned handgun within certain parameters and still be liability compliant for the agency.
In the end, regardless of caliber...9mm, ,38, .40, 10mm, .45...it comes down to marksmanship. A hit with a .38 is better than a loud miss with a .44 Magnum...only hits count. While there are differences between different calibers and different loadings within each caliber...you have to hit the target first in a spot that can cause immediate stopping of the criminal act.
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,509
I'm like 99% sure you are Brian Frosh and are just trying to distract us so we dont spend as much time fighting for the 2a this session or something.
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
Sheep?
You just got your rights back to own firearms and are claiming to be some kind of authority on firearms?
- Dec 27, 2012
- 30,203
Its odd to me how each county, town, and city has some one person (or committee) who selects a gun and caliber and how many come up with answers different from other departments with the exact same criteria. On top of that, you'd think that that particular decision making person (or committee) is pretty much the smartest guy in the room.
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