Caliber wars won: 9mm vs 10mm

Melnic · Apr 19, 2019

Hmm reminds me of another war that went on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war

jimbobborg · Apr 19, 2019

2200 fps is for a .308 bullet. What speed for a bigger bullet? If I can get a bullet with a diameter of 0.401" going 1800 fps, will that be sufficient? I don't think the original 45-70 was doing better than 1400 fps in the original BP load, but it sure killed a lot of buffalo, and still does.

TexDefender · Apr 19, 2019

I find these things more humorous than anything. If you like a 9mm, use it. If you like 10mm use it. If you like a .45 use it. If you fire something and don't like it, then the odds are you will not use it. If you don't use it, how will you become proficient with it?

RoadDawg · Apr 20, 2019

TexDefender said:
I find these things more humorous than anything. If you like a 9mm, use it. If you like 10mm use it. If you like a .45 use it. If you fire something and don't like it, then the odds are you will not use it. If you don't use it, how will you become proficient with it?

Exactly... the .380 you hit the intended target with... is going to be far more effective than the 10mm that you missed the target with. :thumbsup:

Which... I believe happens to be why the FBI opted for 9mm over .40 in their last retooling of their forces. Yes... I know... they claimed that newer 9mm bullets were better than when they chose the 10mm. But AISI... more folks can shoot effectively with 9mm than they do with .40 because the .40 has a snappier recoil than the 9mm.

SigDog · Apr 20, 2019

TexDefender said:
I find these things more humorous than anything. If you like a 9mm, use it. If you like 10mm use it. If you like a .45 use it. If you fire something and don't like it, then the odds are you will not use it. If you don't use it, how will you become proficient with it?

THIS^^^^^^^EXACTLY!

jimbobborg · Apr 20, 2019

The FBI's training is the problem. Give a bunch of accountants a powerful handgun as their first pistol ever and you get problems. Physics is still final. A heavy bullet will penetrate further than a lighter one will. I sincerely doubt that all of the law enforcement agencies and security companies across the country are giving officers 147gr +P+ ammunition for training and carry. Even any training outside of the academy is unlikely.

My lunchtime range gets a lot of security people who are doing their annual "qualifying" there. It's scary how bad the shooting is. None of them practice. I see a lot of bottle grips and tea cup grips. We've come to the point of LCD, and it's appalling. Very few people want to excel. Learning how to shoot the "snappy" 40 isn't hard. Learning proper grip and sight alignment should be ingrained in people who will have to depend on firearms proficiency to keep themselves and their clients/citizens safe.

Magnumite · Apr 20, 2019

jimbobborg said:
2200 fps is for a .308 bullet. What speed for a bigger bullet? If I can get a bullet with a diameter of 0.401" going 1800 fps, will that be sufficient? I don't think the original 45-70 was doing better than 1400 fps in the original BP load, but it sure killed a lot of buffalo, and still does.

Probably not, the bullet wouldn't be constructed for that velocity, breaking up in the target, may even breakup in flight. Given a strong enough, heavy enough bullet for that velocity over penetration would be likely. That is one reason I never really chased down the latest greatest loads on the market. Many of the available loads perform similarly, so it still boils down to the shooter.

easy · Apr 20, 2019

jimbobborg said:
We've come to the point of LCD, and it's appalling.

What is this LCD thing?

jimbobborg · Apr 21, 2019

easy said:
What is this LCD thing?

Lowest Common Denominator.

redeye · Apr 25, 2019

So the take away is: use a rifle

DutchV · Apr 25, 2019

redeye said:
So the take away is: use a rifle

Correct.

jbrown50 · Apr 25, 2019

redeye said:
So the take away is: use a rifle

DutchV said:
Correct.

Especially if the criminal that you're tracking down is known to carry a rifle.

jimbobborg · Apr 25, 2019

Handguns are used to get to your long gun...

j_h_smith · Apr 25, 2019

A rifle has it's merits as does a handgun. Each is a tool with a specific job to do. It's when you confuse which tool to use for an intended job, does it become a problem. This can also be used in the caliber argument. Not much need to carry around a 454 Casull most of the time. But when you need it, there's no substitute.

04RWon · Apr 26, 2019

jimbobborg said:
Handguns are used to get to your long gun...

But what if your long gun is a “pistol” but in a rifle caliber, though technically, it could be a rifle if you swapped the device on the back, although it is actually neither a pistol or a rifle, it could be just a firear...

OLM-Medic · Apr 27, 2019

j_h_smith said:
A rifle has it's merits as does a handgun. Each is a tool with a specific job to do. It's when you confuse which tool to use for an intended job, does it become a problem. This can also be used in the caliber argument. Not much need to carry around a 454 Casull most of the time. But when you need it, there's no substitute.

Damn right. I won't carry my Glock 19 on the Montana hiking trips.

Docster · Apr 30, 2019

Damn...I've been doing my testing with ballistic Gello :lol2:

photoracer · Apr 30, 2019

OLM-Medic said:
Damn right. I won't carry my Glock 19 on the Montana hiking trips.

You do realize that Alaskan statics indicate that almost anything 9mm and above is effective against all bears based on real world shootings there now.
When I lived there you only had FMJ and lead bullets so big bore magnum handguns were the norm. Apparently bullet design is more important than caliber based on the latest study there. So I guess the FBI and the bullet makers are correct.
37 bear attack shootings dated from 1987 to 2018 97% success rate, calibers from 9mm to .454 Casull. Most from Alaska and some from the lower 48.
4 9mm shootings 100% success rate.
3 .357Mag revolvers 66% success rate.
3 .40S&W shootings 100% success rate.
1 10mm shooting 100% success rate.
2 41Mag revolvers 100% success rate.
12 44Mag revolvers 100% success rate.
4 .45ACP shootings 100% success rate.
1 .45 Super shooting 100% success rate.
1 .454 Casull shooting 100% success rate.
3 unidentified handguns 100% success rate.
8 were against black bears and 27 against grizzlies (2 unidentified).

And in the case of the .454 Casull shooting 4-5 rounds were fired but the bear was finished off with a rifle.
Of the 4 9mm incidents 3 grizzlies were killed and one black bear was wounded and ran off.

Now this is a limited study based around known encounters and obviously does not take into account some unsuccessful ones that either the bears won or not enough info was known. There are some studies of a few hundred incidents that indicate handgun success rates as low as 60%. Most data also indicates that bear spray is highly successful also in preventing lethal incidents to both the bears and people.

danb · May 3, 2019

photoracer said:
You do realize that Alaskan statics indicate that almost anything 9mm and above is effective against all bears based on real world shootings there now.
When I lived there you only had FMJ and lead bullets so big bore magnum handguns were the norm. Apparently bullet design is more important than caliber based on the latest study there. So I guess the FBI and the bullet makers are correct.
37 bear attack shootings dated from 1987 to 2018 97% success rate, calibers from 9mm to .454 Casull. Most from Alaska and some from the lower 48.
4 9mm shootings 100% success rate.
3 .357Mag revolvers 66% success rate.
3 .40S&W shootings 100% success rate.
1 10mm shooting 100% success rate.
2 41Mag revolvers 100% success rate.
12 44Mag revolvers 100% success rate.
4 .45ACP shootings 100% success rate.
1 .45 Super shooting 100% success rate.
1 .454 Casull shooting 100% success rate.
3 unidentified handguns 100% success rate.
8 were against black bears and 27 against grizzlies (2 unidentified).

And in the case of the .454 Casull shooting 4-5 rounds were fired but the bear was finished off with a rifle.
Of the 4 9mm incidents 3 grizzlies were killed and one black bear was wounded and ran off.

Now this is a limited study based around known encounters and obviously does not take into account some unsuccessful ones that either the bears won or not enough info was known. There are some studies of a few hundred incidents that indicate handgun success rates as low as 60%. Most data also indicates that bear spray is highly successful also in preventing lethal incidents to both the bears and people.

Right but that is a positively huge source of bias. If there were 100 defenses with 9mm, but the 4 successful ones were reported while the 96 unsuccessful ones went unreported, because the bear ate the hiker, this study reports a 100% success rate when in fact its 4%.

There was literally one unsuccessful defense. For all we know everyone missed and the noise scares them off. Without the underlying data it's hard to know what any of this means or whether it's even useful.

Caliber wars won: 9mm vs 10mm

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

dont be a dumbass

Ultimate Member

Oddball caliber fan

Ultimate Member

Nos nostraque Deo

Active Member

Oddball caliber fan

Ultimate Member

Member

Oddball caliber fan

Banned

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Oddball caliber fan

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Attachments

Banned

Ultimate Member

Competition Shooter

dont be a dumbass

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics