Carrying in a MD workplace??

Pale Ryder · Nov 13, 2018

I don't know how some of this got so far out in the weeds. In the OP it was stated the firearm would be stored in the businesses safe. No need to transport or worry about it.
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I was being facetious above, I know how we got there, it is MDS after all.

swinokur · Nov 13, 2018

Yep and we love to pick apart statutes. and because there were some questions about how to get the firearm to the business the first time.

That has been clarified by looking carefully at the statutes.
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mxrider · Nov 13, 2018

Pale Ryder said:
I don't know how some of this got so far out in the weeds. In the OP it was stated the firearm would be stored in the businesses safe. No need to transport or worry about it.
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I was being facetious above, I know how we got there, it is MDS after all.

When it comes to someone's personal freedom's, I tend to over analyze the legal analysis.

swinokur said:
Yep and we love to pick apart statutes. and because there were some questions about how to get the firearm to the business the first time.

That has been clarified by looking carefully at the statutes.
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Meh, I still don't agree that it's ok to transport it to work, but we can agree to disagree on that one. That's why I stated to contact an attorney.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 13, 2018

Not withstanding to controversy over Supervisory Employees transporting to place of business , if one is inferring the ability to so transport, it should be done unloaded & encased , until arriving upon the business premises .

Words sometimes having meanings , actual Security Gaurds whom are armed will have a W&C . IF the Employer allows the use of personal owned weapons , the Employer routinely includes a boilerplate request for the Employee to carry to& from home, and that will be included on the restrictions .

Abulg1972 · Nov 13, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Words sometimes having meanings , actual Security Gaurds whom are armed will have a W&C . IF the Employer allows the use of personal owned weapons , the Employer routinely includes a boilerplate request for the Employee to carry to& from home, and that will be included on the restrictions .

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. .

A security guard might not have a W&C permit because a security guard does not necessary need a permit to carry a firearm at his/her place of employment. If the nature of his duties are supervisory in nature and he has permission to do so, then (b)(7) permits him to carry, wear or transport the firearm at his place of employment without a permit. It is not a difficult thing to make someone a "supervisory employee". If an employee does have a W&C permit, then we aren't even having this discussion because (b)(2) controls.

There are many rules of statutory construction that go into this analysis, but suffice it to say that (i) courts construe criminal statutes in the narrowest manner necessary to effect the legislative intent and (ii) courts will not interpret a statute in a way that renders it meaningless or results in an absurd or unreasonable outcome. If the statute permits a supervisory employee to wear, carry and transport a firearm at his place of employment, then the statute obviously also permits the employee to transport a firearm from point A to his place of employment so that he can carry, wear or transport the firearm at his place of employment. Interpreting paragraph (b)(7) in a manner that does not give effect to its words would render (b)(7) meaningless, and a court would never construe a statute in a way that renders it meaningless.

Stoveman · Nov 13, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. .

A security guard might not have a W&C permit because a security guard does not necessary need a permit to carry a firearm at his/her place of employment. If the nature of his duties are supervisory in nature and he has permission to do so, then (b)(7) permits him to carry, wear or transport the firearm at his place of employment without a permit. It is not a difficult thing to make someone a "supervisory employee". If an employee does have a W&C permit, then we aren't even having this discussion because (b)(2) controls.

There are many rules of statutory construction that go into this analysis, but suffice it to say that (i) courts construe criminal statutes in the narrowest manner necessary to effect the legislative intent and (ii) courts will not interpret a statute in a way that renders it meaningless or results in an absurd or unreasonable outcome. If the statute permits a supervisory employee to wear, carry and transport a firearm at his place of employment, then the statute obviously also permits the employee to transport a firearm from point A to his place of employment so that he can carry, wear or transport the firearm at his place of employment. Interpreting paragraph (b)(7) in a manner that does not give effect to its words would render (b)(7) meaningless, and a court would never construe a statute in a way that renders it meaningless.

What I believe the big fella to mean is the restriction on an armed Security Guard's permit would read something like "Valid only to and from home to work and while conducting business as an employee of the Hillary Clinton Pantsuit Security company".

pbharvey · Nov 13, 2018

Bulldog317 said:
can he give permission for a employee to keep a firearm and or carry a firearm concealed while at work while only on the premises. The firearm would stay in a safe and would not be transported back and forth each day.

Keep a long gun in a safe at work.
No CCW or supervisory permission, no transportation questions, no uneasy employees or anyone raising questions about insurance and such.
Of course the down side is the time required for you to go get the gun to stop the threat.
What type of business is it?

Biggfoot44 · Nov 13, 2018

Even inhouse, a Security Gaurd has an actual legal definition . Even inhouse Gaurds in Maryland have certain licensing requirements . ( Licencing to be Security Gaurd, not necessarily armed .) For such Gaurds to be armed for thus employment, they need W&C .

Abulg1972 · Nov 13, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Even inhouse, a Security Gaurd has an actual legal definition . Even inhouse Gaurds in Maryland have certain licensing requirements . ( Licencing to be Security Gaurd, not necessarily armed .) For such Gaurds to be armed for thus employment, they need W&C .

That’s false, plain and simple. A lot of BS being floated on this thread.

I can open a day spa, employ my spouse as head of spa security and authorize her to carry a handgun at my day spa. She doesn’t need a W&C permit. She doesn’t need to register as, or obtain a license to be called, a “day spa security guard.”

You are conflating issues. There’s a regulatory scheme for persons who engage in the business of serving as private security guards. We aren’t talking about that.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 13, 2018

No , used to be with a business that had inhouse Security Gaurds , and they indeed required the "Gaurd Card" from MSP .

Your spouse can be a shift manager , special event director, or whatever that also happens to moniter the security of the establishment , while armed under Supervisory Employee clause , but she can't be a * Security Gaurd * without complying with the Security Gaurd regs .

Abulg1972 · Nov 13, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
No , used to be with a business that had inhouse Security Gaurds , and they indeed required the "Gaurd Card" from MSP .

Your spouse can be a shift manager , special event director, or whatever that also happens to moniter the security of the establishment , while armed under Supervisory Employee clause , but she can't be a * Security Gaurd * without complying with the Security Gaurd regs .

Biggfoot44 · Nov 13, 2018

Wrong that I wasn't there ? Wrong that all of our Gaurds didn't require the paperwork and approval of MSP ? Wrong that there isn't staturory definition of Security Gaurds ?

Occam · Nov 13, 2018

My boss is kind of an ass sometimes, but he’s cool about this. But then, I’m self-employed. I insisted he get myself a permit.

Of course the real boss is my wife. Happily her opinions are more along the lines of, “You’re not going out of the house wearing THAT holster with those shoes, are you?”

Abulg1972 · Nov 13, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Wrong that I wasn't there ? Wrong that all of our Gaurds didn't require the paperwork and approval of MSP ? Wrong that there isn't staturory definition of Security Gaurds ?

Guy, we’re not talking about an independent contractor firm that supplies private security guards to businesses.

http://bfy.tw/KqiM

Abulg1972 · Nov 13, 2018

Occam said:
My boss is kind of an ass sometimes, but he’s cool about this. But then, I’m self-employed. I insisted he get myself a permit.

I see what you did there.

Blaster229 · Nov 13, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
Guy, we’re not talking about an independent contractor firm that supplies private security guards to businesses.

http://bfy.tw/KqiM

It doesn't matter what you're talking about. Just accept it and move along LOL

Biggfoot44 · Nov 13, 2018

Nope. Talking about a business ( that does somthing else ) having its own Security Force , that are employees of that business, and do not do any services for outside companies .

The Regs and requirements are simpler than for Security Gaurd Companies that offer services to outside clients , but its not an unregulated endevor .

Blaster229 · Nov 14, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Even inhouse, a Security Gaurd has an actual legal definition . Even inhouse Gaurds in Maryland have certain licensing requirements . ( Licencing to be Security Gaurd, not necessarily armed .) For such Gaurds to be armed for thus employment, they need W&C .

A supervisory employee with a gun at work is not a security guard, he's an employee at work with permission to have a gun. That's it. A security guard is one who provides security solely. A stock clerk in a store is still a stock clerk. His job title is not supervisory stock clerk security guard, thus not subject to satisfy the requirements of Maryland's "security guard" definition.

Your "in house" security would be akin to what Northrop Grumman/Westinghouse back in the day had. Hell, they used to have a k9 patrol.

Have any examples of businesses who do this nowadays? What business would take on the liability of having a security business that requires a whole other business to staff and run? That's why contact security is so big.

Abulg1972 · Nov 14, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Nope. Talking about a business ( that does somthing else ) having its own Security Force , that are employees of that business, and do not do any services for outside companies .

The Regs and requirements are simpler than for Security Gaurd Companies that offer services to outside clients , but its not an unregulated endevor .

Wrong again. If you'd actually pull out and read the Code, you would save us all a lot of time.

All references are to the Business Occupations and Professions Article of the Annotated Code of Maryland.

Section 19-101(j). "Security guard” means an individual who provides security guard services to any person on behalf of a security guard agency, regardless of whether the individual is described as a security guard, watchman, or private patrolman or by other title.

Section 19-101(k). (1) "Security guard agency” means a person who conducts a business that provides security guard services. (2) “Security guard agency” does not include a person that is primarily engaged in the business of owning, maintaining, or otherwise managing property.

The scope of these laws covers a business enterprise whose employees provide security services to another business enterprise. It does not cover an employee of my day spa who I authorize to carry a handgun while sitting at the check-in desk.

Pinecone · Nov 15, 2018

teratos said:
I find nothing in the statute about rice cookers being prohibited. They may be carried concealed or openly.

Carrying in a MD workplace??

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