Smelting lead

trickg · Jan 19, 2014

I've always thought it interesting how much discussion goes into this subject, although to be fair when I used to watch and help my dad with it in the late 70s and 80s it was probably a bit easier. Lead was easier to get (he used to cast wheel weights more than anything else) and I don think it was as mucked up with other impurities and other things that seem to be so prevalent these days.

Dad had a 2-burner stove similar to the one on this page.

http://stores.hurricaneproducts.net/-strse-70/B1-dsh-63-dsh-5112-NAT-|-Natural/Detail.bok

He had a big propane tank - small enough to take and get it filled, but barely - and a bunch of cast iron cauldrons. On smelting days he'd use the big cauldron, throw in wheel weights, flux with a chunk of paraffin wax, skim off the crap, and then just get down to making ingots with his Lyman ingot moulds. Didn't seem to be overly complex to me.

WheelHead · Jan 19, 2014

These weights are nasty with paint and other coatings. Some of them where from large 18 wheel trucks are are covered in god knows what....Should be a nasty burn the first time...

tony b · Jan 19, 2014

It all burns out. Just make sure you do it outside.

Runamuck · Jan 19, 2014

so, a few questions. what does the flux do, and what times and how much should be added ? what flux should be used? what happens to things like dirt, grime, backing from the stick on wieghts etc. ? any good sources of reading material on this, thinking about trying this when garrett county winter subsides (july 4th, maybe)

tony b · Jan 19, 2014

Flux binds to the impurities. Flux can be anything from wax to sawdust. Lyman book on casting would be a good resource for you.

Deep Creek Rock · Jan 20, 2014

Runamuck said:
so, a few questions. what does the flux do, and what times and how much should be added ? what flux should be used? what happens to things like dirt, grime, backing from the stick on wieghts etc. ? any good sources of reading material on this, thinking about trying this when garrett county winter subsides (july 4th, maybe)

You flux the pot initially when the lead all melts. When you actually bullet cast, fluxing usally should be done every 15 minutes. But another way you can tell the pot needs fluxed, is when you run your ladle towards the bottom of your lead melter full of lead alloy, the bottom of the pot will feel heavier VS towards the top. This usally means your alloy is starting to seperate (lead being heavier will sink towards the bottom).

Depending on what flux you use, you will get a cloud of smoke, or sometimes a burst of flames. I use parrafin wax (gulf wax) which is cheap, and lasts you a long time. Beeswax is better and will linger in the pot for a longer time, but it is not always easy to find as parrafin wax.

I dont recommend commercial flux sold as "Clean cast" from Frankford Arsenal. That stuff is hyrdoscopic, and coats your pot, ladles with a grey corrosive goop. The goop is hydroscopic too. If you stick your ladle full of that goop residue from a previous casting session, into a pot of molten lead - it will spit hot lead everywhere.

When you render weights, the backing & paint burns off at the top of the pot. Fluxing will bring up impurities as well. Rendering is definetly something you need to do in full outdoors, and not in an area with even a fan or door open. It stinks to high hell!

wgttgw · Jan 20, 2014

Runamuck said:
so, a few questions. what does the flux do, and what times and how much should be added ? what flux should be used? what happens to things like dirt, grime, backing from the stick on wieghts etc. ? any good sources of reading material on this, thinking about trying this when garrett county winter subsides (july 4th, maybe)

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_4_Fluxing.htm

Justler · Jan 20, 2014

Deep Creek Rock said:
My preference is to use my Lee electric melter. That pot will not get hot enough to melt a zinc weight (they float to the top) but it gets plenty hot to melt lead alloy.

Using the Lee 4-20 smelter must take awhile to render weights since the volume inside isn't very large. My Lee 4-20 will get up over 900F, at least that's what the thermometer says (which I haven't actually tested against a known high temp heat source).

Winterborn · Jan 20, 2014

Justler said:
Using the Lee 4-20 smelter must take awhile to render weights since the volume inside isn't very large. My Lee 4-20 will get up over 900F, at least that's what the thermometer says (which I haven't actually tested against a known high temp heat source).

Using the Lee pot is the only method I've ever used, so I can't really compare.

I will say that the time involved in making ingots for later casting doesn't really bother me, the hobby is something I enjoy doing.

Guess I'm just a putterer by nature, as long as I'm in the garage doing something (reloading, sorting brass, smelting, casting bullets, powder coating, cleaning guns, etc...) the hours kind of just slide past.

A nice crisp day, fire roaring in the woodstove, good music playing.....I have spent 8-10hrs straight in there and not even noticed.

If I started every project worrying about how long it would take, I'd never do anything for fun.

Justler · Jan 20, 2014

Rendering lead... Sometimes the easiest step of casting a complete bullet!

I had a big post typed up but it came unhinged after a few paragraphs... it really belonged in a Howto guide

.

The hardest part of rendering the weights I think is the initial sort just because it's so time consuming compare to the rest of the process as you are handling every single weight to try and eliminate the chance of Zinc getting in there... from there it's pretty easy.

I use a propane turkey fryer w/ a stainless steel pot and a lead thermometer to gauge temperature. Just put all the weights in, start up the fryer, watch the temps. Once it gets melted throw in some wax (be careful, it will probably flash a ball of fire) and stir/mix it a bit real slow. You don't need a ton of flux, watch some Youtube videos and get an idea of what people use and what the process looks like. After you skim the flux off you can ladle out your lead into bars. I use condiment cups from Sam's Club, others use muffin tins and some will buy cast iron molds. It'll need to cool enough to harden a bit and you can flip it and pour again!

I like the Lee 4-20 that Deeprock mentioned, works nice, is decent size to keep a good amount of 1lb ingots going in.

I use primarily Lee 6-cavity molds and have 1 NOE mold. Check what bullet weights your current powders have data for with lead bullets, that should give you an easy path to pick molds and also keep in mind how you are going to lube (lube, pan lube, lubrisizer). I like to tumble lube after experiencing the pain of pan lubing. I do a small amount of allox, size with a lee push through and then re-allox again just to hit the bearing surfaces that get shaved off.

Good luck and let us know what other questions you have!

Justler · Jan 20, 2014

Winterborn said:
Using the Lee pot is the only method I've ever used, so I can't really compare.

I will say that the time involved in making ingots for later casting doesn't really bother me, the hobby is something I enjoy doing.

Guess I'm just a putterer by nature, as long as I'm in the garage doing something (reloading, sorting brass, smelting, casting bullets, powder coating, cleaning guns, etc...) the hours kind of just slide past.

A nice crisp day, fire roaring in the woodstove, good music playing.....I have spent 8-10hrs straight in there and not even noticed.

If I started every project worrying about how long it would take, I'd never do anything for fun.

I'm a tinkerer/putterer as well, and I go fairly slow because it is a hobby I enjoy as well

. Just thought it would be difficult to process a bunch of weights in a Lee 4-20 is all. Good to see more casters in the area!

inkd · Jan 20, 2014

I've been trying to get wheel weights from the shops around here and have struck out at all of them.

Chain stores have contracts with scrappers to come in and have to report how much they buy and turn in.

Independent shops already have regular locals who come in and get them.

Justler · Jan 20, 2014

inkd said:
I've been trying to get wheel weights from the shops around here and have struck out at all of them.

Chain stores have contracts with scrappers to come in and have to report how much they buy and turn in.

Independent shops already have regular locals who come in and get them.

I went to probably 12 different shops before finding some that would give up their wheel weights... Wherever I drove around if I saw a place that looks like they did tires I would stop and ask them. I'd ask if I could have them at first, then I offered cash if/when they seemed resistant to the idea.

Being that casting is getting more popular, finding lead will be more difficult and you'll run into competition. If offered cash to a large chain and the employees sold to me. They employees were keeping the weights, not giving them to the exide guy and instead selling them to their friends. After I bought, one guy came in and told the guy I gave $10 for a whole bucket to that he sells a bucket to his friend for $25. Keep trying and hit every shop you can. I put a few home depot buckets in my car for when I want to collect weights and just swap them buckets and bring my scale with me if I think i'm going to end up offering a by the pound price.

WheelHead · Jan 20, 2014

Ha...I thought I was the only one riding around with a stack of 5 gallon buckets and a scale in my trunk....make me feel better...

Justler · Jan 20, 2014

WheelHead said:
Ha...I thought I was the only one riding around with a stack of 5 gallon buckets and a scale in my trunk....make me feel better...

Glad I can help you feel better! Finding the weights can be difficult, but you'll eventually find someone... Let them know you do it for a hobby for target shooting. I usually just ask the guy at the desk something along the lines of "Hi, I was wondering if you guys collect your old wheel weights and what you do with them? I wanted to see if I could get some as I recycle them to use for target practice". They either get their boss or let me know what the deal is. If they ask how many I need, I say as many as they have

. I haven't gotten more than I could take so far!

I offered to make my brother in law bullets while I cast my own (he shoots the same calibers mostly) if he collected the bullets himself. He gave up after two shops of no return. I am guessing this is probably common. Just have to keep at it and finding other places to ask.

Aquaholic · Jan 21, 2014

I havent looked in awhile but I was having good luck finding lead ignots on the popular online auction site. USPS really screwed themselves with their flat rate shipping as you can getabout 60 lbs of ignots into their largest box. I dont currently make my own bullets but used what i got for fishing lures. I was getting it for about $1/lb. Wish i had places to get wheel weights but have struck out and paying $1/lb and saving the time on the sorting/cleaning process was worth it to me to pay.

trickg · Jan 21, 2014

tony b said:
Flux binds to the impurities. Flux can be anything from wax to sawdust. Lyman book on casting would be a good resource for you.

Does the flux actually bind to the impurities? Paraffin burns off pretty quickly - Dad's process was to drop in a dollop of wax and it would quickly burst into flames on the top of the pot. While it was doing that, he'd give the pot a good stir. Everything would kind of come together at the top where it could be skimmed off with the ladle, leaving mostly pure lead alloy.

Regarding the other question about getting impurities and other garbage out, the cool thing about lead is that it's heavier than just about everything else normal, so once you flux the pot it all pretty much winds up floating on the surface due to the fact that everything else is lighter and less dense.

I wish my Dad was still around to ask - I don't know if he had simply been doing it long enough that he actually had a process for how he did his casting, or if he simply didn't worry about it too much - he made a lot of good bullets over the years - everything from 38 caliber round balls to 405 gr bullets for the 45-70/90, and a whole lotta other stuff in-between with what were almost exclusively Lyman moulds. From my perspective, he didn't worry about it too much, although he did have a Brinell hardness tester, but most of the time WW got him most of the way where he wanted to be.

Pinecone · Jan 21, 2014

I have found, that for rendering or smelting the pieces, the casting pots don't have the power to melt a lot quickly when you are pouring ingots. It is not the temperature, but the wattage to bring the cold metal up to melting temp.

In the past, I used a single burner electric hot plate and a cast iron frying pan. Actually, I had both going at the same time.

Deep Creek Rock · Jan 21, 2014

Justler said:
Using the Lee 4-20 smelter must take awhile to render weights since the volume inside isn't very large. My Lee 4-20 will get up over 900F, at least that's what the thermometer says (which I haven't actually tested against a known high temp heat source).

20lb lead melter is not that small.

If you want to speed up rendering wheel weights with the 4-20 pot, the secret is to NOT empty the pot all the way when you pour your ingots. Keep the heat up all the way on High during rendering (you'll find when you bullet cast you have to turn the temp down)

Fill the pot all the way up with molten alloy when you initialy render your weights. When you go to pour your ingots, dont let the pot go under half way full of molten alloy. I find after pouring 8 ingots the pot is half full still. Just add more wheel weights into the molten lead with pliers, until its filled again. The weights melt faster that way, and probably find that rendering goes a little faster.

Ive had no problems, or accidental zinc melting using the electric melter, and I melt ALOT of lead.

Another option is to skip the rendering/ingot pouring all together. Just make bullets straight from the melted wheel weights after you flux, and clear out the clips. You skip an entire step that way. You can get away with that for bullets that will be ran at lower pressures/lower speeds, where specified hardness is not as critical.

WheelHead · Jan 21, 2014

I purchased one of these local on sale for 35 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-SP10-High-Pressure-Outdoor/dp/B000291GBQ/ref=sr_1_23?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1390322971&sr=1-23&keywords=King+Kooker
I picked up a cast pan and some tools yesterday. I have an old cast mold that my dad found years ago while hunting for scrap steel. So it looks like I just need what I'm going to use as flux and I can get started. Except the weather looks like it going to keep me inside for the next few days so the next day I can get outside.....

Smelting lead

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