Black powder rifle identification help - R Southgate

JasonB · Apr 21, 2016

Some of you may have seen the other thread I posted about the collection that a family friend is selling for a relative that had to go into a home. In the collection is this percussion rifle and the only markings I can find are R Southgate on the top of the barrel. I searched for R Southgate and I can only find listings for pistols. Does anyone know anything about his rifles? What would something like this be worth?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2VPnSef8jw2eXBQNmlldDlMdms

Threeband · Apr 21, 2016

Google leads quickly to this:

Reference "The Guns of Royland Southgate" by Rick Hacker, Gun Digest, 1990, 44th Annual Edition.

Southgate hand built 849 rifles and 158 pistols in flintlock and percussion persuasion; not replicas, but true originals crafted the old fashioned way he learned from the last of the Appalachian craftsmen such as his mentor, Hacker Martin.

Most of Southgate's machinery was homemade and "self powered". He cast and machined all his own metalwork to include hand planning the octagonal barrels and hand cutting the screws.

His last and one of the most elaborate rifles, Number 1007, was commissioned by Slim Pickens of movie fame.

...

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/royland-southgate-percussion-rifle-26-29111948.html

There's more there.

Quite a bit here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15402.0

And that looks like a good place to ask more questions, because MDS is not very strong on muzzleloaders.

I would also point you to this forum:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php

Which is good for traditional muzzleloaders.

https://www.google.com/search?q=R+S...e..69i57j69i64j69i60&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Is yours numbered? I don't see any sights on it, either.

JasonB · Apr 21, 2016

Thanks Threeband - I was probably searching for ones for sale and that is why I came up empty on the rifles - seems like quite a few pistols have come up for sale.

There are sights, fixed and very low to the barrel. I will have to have them check if it is numbered.

Augie · Apr 22, 2016

There should be a serial number somewhere,number will be between 1 and 1100 roughly if I remember right, also Southgate should be stamped on the face of the lock.
Southgate is credited with keeping traditional muzzle loading rifle construction alive, pretty much everything made by hand.
Good functional rifles but somewhat clunky, not the graceful reproductions made today by the top makers.
They generally do not have huge value especially the rather plain percussion rifles like this one, a more ornate flintlock would have higher value.
Still there is collector interest in them, I have some interest depending on what they want for the rifle.

JasonB · Apr 22, 2016

Augie said:
There should be a serial number somewhere,number will be between 1 and 1100 roughly if I remember right, also Southgate should be stamped on the face of the lock.
Southgate is credited with keeping traditional muzzle loading rifle construction alive, pretty much everything made by hand.
Good functional rifles but somewhat clunky, not the graceful reproductions made today by the top makers.
They generally do not have huge value especially the rather plain percussion rifles like this one, a more ornate flintlock would have higher value.
Still there is collector interest in them, I have some interest depending on what they want for the rifle.

I have had someone tell me that the 3 dots could signify a serial number of 252 - do you have other Southgate rifles?

Augie · Apr 23, 2016

JasonB said:
I have had someone tell me that the 3 dots could signify a serial number of 252 - do you have other Southgate rifles?

I don't think those are dots, I think that is a number 252 or 259? I don't have any Southgate rifles, just have some knowledge about muzzleloading rifles in general.
One thing that bothers me about the rifle is the few other ones I have seen are stamped Southgate on the lock plate.

JasonB · Apr 23, 2016

Augie said:
I don't think those are dots, I think that is a number 252 or 259? I don't have any Southgate rifles, just have some knowledge about muzzleloading rifles in general. One thing that bothers me about the rifle is the few other ones I have seen are stamped Southgate on the lock plate.

I contacted someone on the American long rifles form that is writing a history of the Southgate rifles and he thinks 252 for the serial which would put it around 1953. How do you guys come up with that from the dots? Also he indicated that the earlier rifles did have the plain lock plate.

Augie · Apr 23, 2016

If you blow up the pic of the dots it looks like they are number stamps. One other question I would have is the rifle appears to have a brass breech plug/tang, that would be highly unusual as most breech plugs that I know of are steel, may want to ask the person writing the book about that.

Threeband · Apr 23, 2016

Zoom in on those "dots" and you'll see they are numbers.

JasonB · Apr 28, 2016

I see that now, it is 252.

Black powder rifle identification help - R Southgate

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