Baltimore LEO shootout

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  • smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412

    I'm interested in a breakdown of this by the training community. If you were watching this with the two officers, what highlights would you praise them for and what areas could they improve in? I'm strictly interested in this from an aar perspective and training discussion, and figure a shootout in which a LEO took one to the vest should pretty much shut up anyone that would do anti-leo shenanigans here.

    So, good...bad? What do you see? Should the cam officer have secured the threat before checking the vest of his partner? Given the setting, does seeking cover behind the car make more sense than running to the street and ditching your partner? How would you have secured the scene as the locals started turning up? Kudos to the camera LEO for looking after the welfare of his partner. Is there a way he could have better looked out for him legally? What are the legal concerns for these two gentlemen that they need to act for?

    Hopefully we can keep this informative and people can get something from it.
     

    nomade

    Active Member
    Apr 26, 2014
    350
    Wow. Crazy situation.
    I think after checking his partner fist time, after the shooting stops, he should try to secure the felon's gun.
    But.. its a hard situation.
     
    Last edited:

    kstone803

    Official Meat Getter
    Feb 25, 2009
    3,923
    Ltown in the SMC
    Not sure about the running down the street aspect. Maybe just making sure they weren't about to get ambushed from behind. I know point blank vests should host this on their website though.
     

    ADR

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 17, 2011
    4,171
    It's called adrenaline and the one thing you guys who aren't cops should take from it was well put by Mike Tyson. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

    I have opinions on what was done but as LE I won't judge or speculate on a forum. (Especially one that has quite a few people with anti police mentalities.)
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    3 minutes for back up after calling Officers hit? That's f'd up!

    Wow! 3 minutes is an eternity.
    I had occasion to call 911 once to report an officer needed assistance and I think the first responding car arrived within 30 seconds! By the time 3 minutes rolled around the 2900 block of Greenmount Ave looked like a police convention!
     

    PJS

    Heavy
    Feb 4, 2014
    167
    Baltimore
    Based on what I've seen, local police departments do not provide enough training for their officers. Certainly Baltimore City, where there is already a shortage of bodies on the street, they don't have time and don't have resources to get these folks prepared to handle the myriad of things they might face. So it's on the individual officers. Imagine working a 50-60 hour week, trying to fit in some hands on combat training, spend some time in the gym staying fit, and being responsible for your own tactical training. That's a lot to ask.

    I know I'm better trained as a civilian than a lot of police officers; and I'm not going to be the guy running toward a gunfight. As citizens and voters, this should be something we're talking about - LEOs need more support.

    Compare that to the Feds, where they do crazy force on force scenarios to stay as sharp as possible. (And weed out people who just shouldn't be on the street.)
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I feel like I would have been a little concerned about the suspect not actually being down for the count and getting the drop on the both of them; glad it worked out.
     

    holesonpaper

    Active Member
    Mar 10, 2017
    913
    Hazzard county
    I'm glad both officers walked away but clearly the adrenaline of the one officer clouded his actions and abilities. There's lessons here and I suspect both officers learned from the experience - but none of us should criticize. The fact is - not until you're in a highly stressful situation do you adequately know how you'll react to the adrenaline. I've never been in anything remotely like the video - but I did have a situation 7-8 years ago where my adrenaline overwhelmed my actions where I felt like Godzilla. For me that day was a wake up call, and since that point, although you really can't reproduce, I'm a believer that you need to include stress and increased heart rate into your training. Not every situation is like a day at the range.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    The cop was fine. If you're standing, breathing, talking, and not bleeding out, there's nothing another can do to help you in this situation. Seems that suspect was down. You go grab the weapon, cuff the shooter and secure the scene.

    Him "tending" to the "wounded" subconsciously justifies him getting out of the fight.

    On my cell so it was tough to see. But where in the hell did 17 rounds go in the first few seconds?
     

    TexDefender

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2017
    1,572
    Wow. Crazy situation.
    I think after checking his partner fist time, after the shooting stops, he should try to secure the felon's gun.
    But.. its a hard situation.

    But should it not be documented as evidence or witnessed by a third party first. I can hear claims of dirty cop planting evidence.
     

    kgain673

    I'm sorry for the typos!!
    Dec 18, 2007
    1,820
    It's called adrenaline and the one thing you guys who aren't cops should take from it was well put by Mike Tyson. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

    I have opinions on what was done but as LE I won't judge or speculate on a forum. (Especially one that has quite a few people with anti police mentalities.)

    Exactly.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971

    I'm interested in a breakdown of this by the training community.


    So I don't know that I'm part of the "training community," but that was a really instructive video, because it shows the total chaos and craziness of a situation like that.

    Disclaimer: not a cop, never shot anyone, never been shot at, etc, so I really don't know what I'm talking about here, but I still think there are lessons to be had.

    Honestly, I don't think either of the officers did badly. They put the bad guy down and they both lived. That said, I think that for the guy who's camera we are watching, first priority ought to be to make absolutely certain that the perp is down and no longer has easy access to the weapon - even if all that is would be to run up and kick the gun 20 - 30 feet away from him. THEN go check your partner, and if he's not in immediate risk of death (i.e. he's walking and talking, there's no obvious major arterial bleed or anything) then you go secure the perp. Then take care of the rest.

    That's not me saying "I would have done this this way..." because frankly I probably would have sat down and pissed myself if someone were to shoot at me, but as a "lessons learned / AAR" type of view.

    3 minutes for back up after calling Officers hit? That's f'd up!

    Well, keep in mind that it took a while for him to figure out where they were - there was a lot of yelling to the bystander about what block they were on, and all of that. He didn't have an exact location to call in with the initial yell for help. Backup showed fairly quickly after he established a good location. He calls in the block at 2:16 and other units are there by 3:20. It's still an eternity when you're that guy, but it's not as bad as it seems.

    The cop was fine. If you're standing, breathing, talking, and not bleeding out, there's nothing another can do to help you in this situation. Seems that suspect was down. You go grab the weapon, cuff the shooter and secure the scene.

    Exactly what I was getting at above. You don't want the suspect to come back around and start pulling the trigger again or whatever on the off chance he wasn't all the way down.

    On my cell so it was tough to see. But where in the hell did 17 rounds go in the first few seconds?

    Looks like the officer who got shot did most of the shooting - you can hear him firing while his partner runs down to the other end of the block, and he's still firing while his partner returns, and then fires (I think) one round over the hood of the car at the suspect.

    But should it not be documented as evidence or witnessed by a third party first. I can hear claims of dirty cop planting evidence.

    That's what the body cameras are for. It's more important in that moment that you remove the suspect's ability to shoot you more should he come around.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    For starters, it is incredibly easy to judge a person's actions after the fact when bullets aren't flying and the situation is not time critical. In this case, the good guys lived, and the threat was eliminated. Which at the end of the day is the best possible outcome.

    That said: situational awareness. Not knowing the coordinates for backup/medivac, being indecisive about cover, the delay before radioing for backup, are all bad. Cover is your friend in a gunfight. The running back and forth between car and building is increasing the chance of catching a bullet. Additional trained numbers are a force multiplier.

    The delay in securing the shooter and weapon is problematic. At any point, if the shooter was alive, while the officer was checking his partner for gsw, the suspect could have taken a shot at him. Secure the threat before triage.

    Midmag reload was good in execution, but doing so while running at the threat is not recommended.

    Application of common sense triage could be applied. Checking behind the vest for bleeds is a little premature (as it is the most armored part). Start with thighs and upper arms and crotch, (head/neck are first but easily assessed) as there are major vessels there which, if compromised, can cause death within minutes. Again, the officer cannot be expected to be a medic and an LEO so these are just nitpicks

    Again: I am not criticizing. There is no stressor quite like being in a gunfight. It is a situation where humans are reduced to base impulse and muscle memory, and what is asked of LEOs is Herculean in it's scope, especially considering the perpetual lack of training they have. These officers did incredibly well considering the lack of support and open engagement zone.
     

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