Current (2018) 9mm defensive ammo

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  • Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    Oh. You do know that NYPD, about 20 years ago, for the longest time issued fmj ammo because they said it was safer, right? Apparently not.

    Yes, and 30 years ago they used 38 special semi-wadcutters. They also used fmj because, like NATO, they erroneously thought hollow points are cruel. Never mind the over penetration. That’s bureaucracy, not the officer’s fault.

    I also think it was longer than 20 years ago that they used fmj. I remember my uncles using hollow points, but don’t remember the brand.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    The NYPD use of fmj was only a cpl years after the general adoption of 9mm . And since it was replacing solid bullet .38spl , kinda of continuing status quo .

    And since they have so many shootings , with good documentation, they can give a good picture of real world results with particular load .
     

    Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    The NYPD use of fmj was only a cpl years after the general adoption of 9mm . And since it was replacing solid bullet .38spl , kinda of continuing status quo .

    And since they have so many shootings , with good documentation, they can give a good picture of real world results with particular load .

    My sentiments exactly, Mr. Biggfoot44.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    I gather you are law enforcement. If so, thank you for your service.
    Thank you.
    I'm a retired Federal Air Marshal as of last year. I don't know ballistics, grains, velocity of rounds, etc...
    But I do know how to place rounds on a threat, standing still or moving. I do know there are no "follow up" shots. You keep shooting the shots you shoot to stop the threat. A follow up shot is what we call a "security round". Any "operator" would say a security round is a follow up shot.
    2 to the grape and if they are flopping on the floor after that, you "follow up" with a security round. "stop the flop".

    Over thinking ballistics and equipment for sound tactics and good shooting skills is what's abundant on forums.

    But shoot your shoot since it's yours and not mine.

    God bless.
     

    Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    Must make up for it with noise and light...

    Actually, I was mistaken. My bedside load is 230gr Speer Gold Dot 45acp. I forgot that I thought the extra flash of +p wasn’t worth the modest increase in performance. Man, my memory is going.
     

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    Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    Thank you.
    I'm a retired Federal Air Marshal as of last year. I don't know ballistics, grains, velocity of rounds, etc...
    But I do know how to place rounds on a threat, standing still or moving. I do know there are no "follow up" shots. You keep shooting the shots you shoot to stop the threat. A follow up shot is what we call a "security round". Any "operator" would say a security round is a follow up shot.
    2 to the grape and if they are flopping on the floor after that, you "follow up" with a security round. "stop the flop".

    Over thinking ballistics and equipment for sound tactics and good shooting skills is what's abundant on forums.

    But shoot your shoot since it's yours and not mine.

    God bless.

    Thanks. I’m sure I’m not as good of a shot as you, so I worry about getting back on target. I’ve also never shot at a live target.

    God Bless!
     

    Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    No worries. They say it’s the third or fourth thing to go...

    I’m batting a thousand tonight. Look at what I have in the draw with my wife’s M&P.

    NYPD issued +P.

    I’m dain bramaged.

    I do load it with a mag of Critical Defense for her.
     

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    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    I'm going to follow up my earlier post with a statement that I don't really use 9mm for SD applications. I do use Critical Defense in my snubby revolver that I occasionally pocket carry, and I'm using Sig's 180gr JHP in my "carry" gun. Recoil isn't bad in a 5" 1911. I have a compact 9mm in the glove box, and that has CDs, bu that's more of a handy, backup to my trunk gun. In the trunk gun, I use 55gr FMJs or soft points. Y'all can use what you like, I'll use what I like. And this thread is 7 pages now. Interesting.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The physics is sound. It will be interesting to see what happens with it in the future.

    The problem is most organs are pretty damned flexible and temporary cavity at the velocity/forces pistols rounds have just isn’t nearly enough to induce tissue trauma much beyond the edges of the wound channel. Now maybe it is sufficient extra shock to damage it further from the edges of the wound channel, but I am highly skeptical. I still think a 9mm round that might mushroom to 15mm is likely to cause more damage than a 9mm bullet that causes a great temporary stretch cavity.

    Look at what it takes with a rifle round and compare it to these cavitators and such. The temporary stretch cavity on a rifle round is MASSIVELY larger.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    The problem is most organs are pretty damned flexible and temporary cavity at the velocity/forces pistols rounds have just isn’t nearly enough to induce tissue trauma much beyond the edges of the wound channel. Now maybe it is sufficient extra shock to damage it further from the edges of the wound channel, but I am highly skeptical. I still think a 9mm round that might mushroom to 15mm is likely to cause more damage than a 9mm bullet that causes a great temporary stretch cavity.

    Look at what it takes with a rifle round and compare it to these cavitators and such. The temporary stretch cavity on a rifle round is MASSIVELY larger.

    Disagree. Temporary cavity has a lot to do with stopping. CNS gets overwhelmed with presurnnNo question that a rifle round can do more. That’s not in the discussion.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    The new wave technology ( various powered/ polymer , venturi , etc ) . Are interesting to watch the developement . As a catagory they are improving , but not yet "better" than more conventional bullets .

    The concept of light projectiles going really, really fast has been dabbled with in various forms for many years . But the major differences in POI doesn't lend them to readily switching back and forth . ( Cue for Blaster to point out that at bad breath distances POI dosen't matter , but that's a seperate discussion .)
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Y'all go ahead and use whatever military arms channel says to use.
    I'll stick with 1 or 2 between the eyes. Or 7 into the gut. Depending on what I'm carrying and how frisky I'm feeling.
     

    Racer Doug14

    Thread killer
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Feb 22, 2013
    8,003
    Millers Maryland
    Utuber "tnoutdoors9" was a very good tester of handgun ammo. I think he generally got best results from 124gr HST, gold dots, and critical defense or duty. He used FBI protocols. Another tuber is "Paul Harrell". But, his "protocol is more like real world, plus its messy and changes after the 2nd round and every one after.
     

    Alea Jacta Est

    Extinguished member
    MDS Supporter
    I recollect a discussion with USMC son when he was first able to CC. (At the time, I was a staunch 1911 guy.). Son was determined to carry a full size 1911. When asked why, his reply was “.45 kills their soul”. My offering to him (he can shoot like nobody I know) was “...if I could shoot like you, I’d carry a .22.”

    Today, years later, he most often carries a G19.

    I’m getting to my point...which follows Blaster. Good modern ammo...any of it, will do the job IF you put it in the right place, the first time.

    The best, most expensive, most highly touted ammo in the world won’t do jack or shiit if you miss.

    Buying more and more expensive guns or ammo or holsters is something folks with too much money and not enough sense do. Invest in training. Practice, practice and practice some more. “Put yourself in the position to be lucky.” Muscle memory is your friend. Training is money.

    Bullets of any type are just that.
     

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