WBAL - State Police Ask For Patience In Gun Application Bottleneck

kcomst said:

Just called today (March 19) and they're working on Feb 2, so currently it's 45 days or 6-1/2 weeks to process.

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Hmmm. Thats funny. Mine was entered Feb 4th. Got it back last Wednesday the 13th. How can they still be working on the 2nd. Really makes you wonder what is really goin on over there.

fabsroman said:

The dealers have no idea what the law is, and most are not large companies. What we need is some sort of actual research from an attorney setting forth the process and providing an opinion letter to the Maryland dealers that they can rely on. Attorneys are expensive, and each small dealer cannot afford to hire an attorney to research this issue for them. What they could do is all chip in and hire an attorney/law firm to research this matter and determine if they can release the gun after 7 days. My position is that Maryland law allows for the release. Thing is, I have no idea what federal law says about the NICS check in this situation.

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We (Maryland FFL's) already do get things vetted Legally. Its called the MD Licensed Dealers Association.

WHen Dealers explain the process they get shouted down by a bunch of people that refuse to hear the facts. They want their gun, and thats all they care about.

clandestine said:

We (Maryland FFL's) already do get things vetted Legally. Its called the MD Licensed Dealers Association.

WHen Dealers explain the process they get shouted down by a bunch of people that refuse to hear the facts. They want their gun, and thats all they care about.

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Wasting your breath sir! I have been getting killed on this for a solid week. Just giving up at this point!

Guess you missed the point all together.

Another thing you guys dont get is even if the gun is released after 7 days (With no MSP Paperwork) and for some reason you get denied for whatever reason, the MSP WILL, I repeat WILL come to your house to sieze that gun. You wont get it back. The Dealer WONT get the gun back and the buyer WONT get a refund.

When they make housecalls to sieze a "Dissaproved" Firearm, the State often DOES persue charges against the buyer. The owner of Scotts Gunsmithing has been summoned to court to testify about the purchase and the buyer filling out the paperwork.

This is one reason he stopped releasing until the MSP gives a "Not Dissaproved", the other is directions from the MLFDA (Dealers Association), MSP, and BATFE Audits.

Pirate said:

Guess you missed the point all together.

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I agree with everything you said. Its actual experience speaking.

No, the "give me my gun" guys have been on here for weeks basically saying that the FFLs not releasing are part of the problem. Most FFLs will tell these guys why they are not releasing but they don't want to hear it.

Pirate said:

Guess you missed the point all together.

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I guess I did. See what I thought you meant was; You are covering your ass and dont care about anyones opinion because they have little to lose and only care that your shop is cluttered with the guns waiting for approvals and to boot your sales are taking a hit because you cant get stock.

meh...

The difference is we cant help you with getting more stock. we might be able to keep you from tripping over guns we would really like to have. And if not our opinion but the opinion of a judge well gee, that would not leave you with much choice. It was just a thought.

I know stuff sucks for both parties and I appreciate you being as civil as you were with everything taken into account. I apologize if my suggestion wasnt well recieved.

Wojo said:

No, the "give me my gun" guys have been on here for weeks basically saying that the FFLs not releasing are part of the problem. Most FFLs will tell these guys why they are not releasing but they don't want to hear it.

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As someone who has asked how this works legally, I first want to express great appreciation for the FFLs especially the participants here. You guys are doing a great service. None of the inquiries I personally have proposed have been attempts to criticize you guys. And you have complete discretion to be cautious and careful about what exactly you will do on this issue.

The reason we all oppose more and more regulations like SB 281 is that even if they contain some consumer protections on paper, the government can use its discretion to abuse those laws and pressure FFLs in a way that reduces the availability of firearms for law abiding citizens beyond what the law prescribes. I think if we could prove this is happening already it might help stop the new regulations too. My questions have been only about coming to a better understanding of the situation, especially if legal pressures are being asserted against you that violate what even the gun laws themselves say.

Can you help us understand whether the threat to your licenses is coming in a direct form against your release of items after the three day waiting period, or if you are being told that if you do that you will face a threat to your license even though it is legal, or if it is from the likewise legitate concern about being sued by someone who gets injured?

My own calculations indicate that you could potentially sell 2 and a half times more items to repeat buyers between now and October if we could figure out a way for you to be legally protected in transferring firearms after the prescribed waiting periods expired. Would any of you be interested in exploring the potential of legal action against government regulators with a competent Second Amendment attorney if it is true that the government is threatening legal action against you or your license even if you abide by the time limits written into Brady and Maryland law? I am doing some side research of my own on this question.

Thanks again for all your support for law abiding citizens and their rights, and I mean that sincerely.

Tashtego said:

As someone who has asked how this works legally, I first want to express great appreciation for the FFLs especially the participants here. You guys are doing a great service. None of the inquiries I personally have proposed have been attempts to criticize you guys. And you have complete discretion to be cautious and careful about what exactly you will do on this issue.

The reason we all oppose more and more regulations like SB 281 is that even if they contain some consumer protections on paper, the government can use its discretion to abuse those laws and pressure FFLs in a way that reduces the availability of firearms for law abiding citizens beyond what the law prescribes. I think if we could prove this is happening already it might help stop the new regulations too. My questions have been only about coming to a better understanding of the situation, especially if legal pressures are being asserted against you that violate what even the gun laws themselves say.

Can you help us understand whether the threat to your licenses is coming in a direct form against your release of items after the three day waiting period, or if you are being told that if you do that you will face a threat to your license even though it is legal, or if it is from the likewise legitate concern about being sued by someone who gets injured?

My own calculations indicate that you could potentially sell 2 and a half times more items to repeat buyers between now and October if we could figure out a way for you to be legally protected in transferring firearms after the prescribed waiting periods expired. Would any of you be interested in exploring the potential of legal action against government regulators with a competent Second Amendment attorney if it is true that the government is threatening legal action against you or your license even if you abide by the time limits written into Brady and Maryland law? I am doing some side research of my own on this question.

Thanks again for all your support for law abiding citizens and their rights, and I mean that sincerely.

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You do not have to take possession of your regulated firearm before you can start the paperwork on another regulated firearm. Heck, you can even start the paperwork on the 2nd regulated firearm before the 30 day period has expired. MSP just will not release the 2nd firearm until the 30 day period has expired (i.e., Just cannot pick the 2nd firearm up until 30 days have passed from the date of the first application). With the way things are, don't think you will have to worry about the 30 days between firearms. So, get the regulated firearms in the pipeline NOW. Do NOT wait until you pick up your first regulated firearm to get the paperwork started on the second one.

clandestine said:

This is one reason he stopped releasing until the MSP gives a "Not Dissaproved", the other is directions from the MLFDA (Dealers Association), MSP, and BATFE Audits.

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Do you have any hard copies of letters from these organizations with the directions to NOT transfer firearms until the 'Not Disapproved' comes back from MSP?

If so can you please please post scans or pictures of the documents?

Ab_Normal said:

Do you have any hard copies of letters from these organizations with the directions to NOT transfer firearms until the 'Not Disapproved' comes back from MSP?

If so can you please please post scans or pictures of the documents?

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Moot point don't you think? if you were a ffl, wouldn't you keep everything until you know for sure if paperwork in fact comes back legit? Regardless if what an industry association recommends? I know I'd feel much better. But i get it. Dealers should take on the burden of releasing a possible disapproved after 7 days because the customers say so. these customers need to get their ffls and sell to themselves.

Sent from somewhere in the world.

The problem is that if you release the gun after 7 day Md law, you have he ferderl law that requires a NICS check. Only St. police can do a NICS check on a handgun.

Jbbtwb said:

The problem is that if you release the gun after 7 day Md law, you have he ferderl law that requires a NICS check. Only St. police can do a NICS check on a handgun.

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So your saying that in Va. the state police do the NICS check on every handgun?
What you are quoting is state law. Realistically the MSP can do the NICS check and then send back the not disapproved or disapproved within 7 days but they chose to check the mystical 17 data bases. They are taking this upon themselves to do this because there is no requirement by law to go any farther. If there is please cite. So in conclusion I believe the bottleneck is the MSP. I mean what more can they dig up the the NICS won't reveal?

fabsroman said:

You do not have to take possession of your regulated firearm before you can start the paperwork on another regulated firearm. Heck, you can even start the paperwork on the 2nd regulated firearm before the 30 day period has expired. MSP just will not release the 2nd firearm until the 30 day period has expired (i.e., Just cannot pick the 2nd firearm up until 30 days have passed from the date of the first application). With the way things are, don't think you will have to worry about the 30 days between firearms. So, get the regulated firearms in the pipeline NOW. Do NOT wait until you pick up your first regulated firearm to get the paperwork started on the second one.

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Is this true? Can we get an official policy statement to this effect?

I heard differently from a dealer, specifically stating that you have to wait for the first approval (45 days nominally now, rapidly increasing), plus an additional 23 days ( to ensure it's at least 30 days, if by some miracle it returns to 7 days) - resulting in a minimum of 67 days to file a subsequent purchase.

The law does specifically state 30 days between "purchases", so it would be logical to allow a person to put another purchase in after 30 days, irregardless of whether the prior purchase investigation went through and was stamped "not disapproved".

I was always told that your 30 days starts when you physically pick up the weapon... I think it is up to the dealer of they want to let you purchase again with the window. Ie, you could pay for it and they just sit on the paperwork until the time is right.

MARYLAND DESIGNATED COLLECTOR STATUS!!! Do the paperwork, it takes about 10/14 days to come back and then you don't need to worry about multiple purchases. In the past week I've filled out paperwork at two different FFL's and the MSP.

http://www.mdsp.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=7BJZzDT7kt8=&tabid=561&.

garyad said:

So your saying that in Va. the state police do the NICS check on every handgun?
What you are quoting is state law. Realistically the MSP can do the NICS check and then send back the not disapproved or disapproved within 7 days but they chose to check the mystical 17 data bases. They are taking this upon themselves to do this because there is no requirement by law to go any farther. If there is please cite. So in conclusion I believe the bottleneck is the MSP. I mean what more can they dig up the the NICS won't reveal?

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This is a MD deal because MD is one of the few states that actually has a designated POC for NICS. MSP is the designated POC for NICS in this state. If there was no designated POC, FFLs could do the check themselves.

Ab_Normal said:

Do you have any hard copies of letters from these organizations with the directions to NOT transfer firearms until the 'Not Disapproved' comes back from MSP?

If so can you please please post scans or pictures of the documents?

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The Shop sure does have hard copies from the MSP/MLFDA. No, Im not posting them. They are for PAID Members of the MLFDA only. If people want the documents they will have to become paid MLFDA members.

Theres a stack of documents we have from a the past 15 Years from the MSP and MLFDA of being in business. I have read them all to acquaint myself with MSP Guidelines and Procedures. In addition to that I have been in the business over 10 years and worked alongside the MSP Inspectors/Troopers, and BATFE Inspectors and Agents.

I dont make up stuff to suit some personal agenda or satisfy some store policy. The store policies are not in polace to screw people over, they are in place to prevent court time for Scott and the Buyer, and to keep the MSP/BATFE from revoking Scotts Regulated Firearms License, and FFL. They policies also prevent a customer from having their gun siezed by the MSP if a gun comes back Not Dissaproved long after the 7 day wait.



Its quite simple. Ill break it down for everyone:

A Maryland FFL has to have 2 Licenses to sell guns (Beyond the regular Business Licenses). 1) Maryland Regulated Firearms License. This allows a Maryland FFL to sell handguns and Regulated Long Guns. The MSP issues this license and there are Guidelines for having this. Violation of MD Law or Guidelines can lead in REVOCATION of that License. In addition, a FFL breaking any STATE LAW in in danger of having their FFL revoked as well because a FFL MUST also abey Federal, State, and Local Laws. These STATE Regulations and Guidelines come from MSP Yearly Audits, MSP EMails, MSP Letters, and Documentation from the MLFDA (If a PAID Member).

The MLFDA works closely with the MSP to come to agreements with Regulations and Licensing. They do ALOT that people havent seen for the past decade. The reason we can sell handguns in MD without a PHYSICALLY BUILT IN LOCK is because of the MLFDA. They negotiated that with the MSP, otherwise only guns with PHYSICALLY Integrated Locks would be legal for sale in MD. The MLFDA got Omega, Visual, and other MSP Approved External Locks aproved to suppliment the Integrated Locks for Handguns.

The MSP holds the keys for Regulated HANDGUN purchases. There is no way around it. Federal Law simply says a FFL "MAY" release a firearm without a State POC Approval and without a NICS/NTN# but "MAY" is not a "SHALL". Theres a BIG difference legally. A Dealer cannot bypass the MSP by calling NICS, they will refuse the transaction once the FFL lists the type of firearm (Handgun). When the MSP does their checks they check several MD Databases and once thats done they call the NICS system. The MSP "Not Dissaproved" is actually a NICS/NTN #.

If we are to beat this system we have to get the MSP removed as the sole NICS Point of Contact, and have something inserted into MD Law to allow Dealers to call or electronically contact NICS after 7 Days and get an NTN/NICS#.

There is a flaw with this though. The State of MD does NOT report all info to NICS and this is a problem using the above method because a person CAN (And they DO, I have seen it), pass a NICS Check, but FAIL a 77R/MSP Check. SO if a Dealer were to call NICS after 7 days is ammended, and the person is Proceed then they could take the gun and the DEALER cannot be acted against. If the check is put on delay then the dealer can release after 3 days, and again if they release NOTHING can happen to the dealer. BUT if the MSP or NICS Denies the transaction then the Feds or the MSP will come get the firearma dn the buyer will not get it back.


To truly BEAT this stranglehold of regulations the best way would be to force the State of MD to share all data with NICS and to eliminate the MSP in the process and do a NICS check by itself. They could even keep the 7 day wit intact but make the dealer hold the gun for 7 days after the NICS proceed is given.