j_h_smith
Ultimate Member
- Jul 28, 2007
- 28,516
Congrats on the reliability and the 20th overall.
My 9mm AR was filthy
- Thread starter jimbobborg
- Start date
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boss281
Ultimate Member
It's hard to find the Colt mags at reasonable prices, but no one wants to order Metalforms (which are considerably cheaper but the same manufacturer). I found Colt 32 rounders for $60 each. Sheesh!
j_h_smith
Ultimate Member
- Jul 28, 2007
- 28,516
Last I bought was a few years ago and I was happy to find them $45 each.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
Metalforms are $39.99 at Midway. But the Colts are the ones I am having real problems with. So, it's looking like Colt style 9mm ARs are as fussy about magazines as some 1911s. Find what works for you and use those.
boss281
Ultimate Member
Ok, I went to AGC with the Colt 6450 this morning, shot 120 rounds of Lawman 124g TMJ, and 30 rounds of cheap American Eagle 115g FMJ, at 25 and 50 yards. Shots were grouped with each, but placed differently. Groups jumped from 1-2" at 25 to about 5" with an occasional stray at 50. Note I cleaned the rifle last week with LIGHT oiling after, and shot 100 rounds. All magazines were 20 year old Colt originals, 32 rounds, no feed problems. Magazines have never been opened up for maintenance, and my brother claims he had 3 of the 32 round magazines loaded for 10 years before he sold it to me and I shot whatever he had in there.
Before casing up the rifle, I popped it open and the upper and lower were absolutely a mess, with brass particles everywhere, even down the bore (well, something was down there). Took it home, disassembled and cleaned it, and locked the upper on the bench while I marked off 25 yards, stuck up a target, and looked down the bore to rough sight it in, followed by the irons, and then a new red dot for the carry handle. Taking it back tomorrow and will run 200 rounds through it again.
Thinking this through, it was just as dirty after two sessions as it is after 1-2 months of shooting without much more than a quick spray of clp on a bore snake and running it through once or twice weekly. It's a durable rifle and holds up well. My brother, a retired LEO, bought it in 1995 and said he cleaned it once in 10 years, and unsure of the number of rounds that went through it. He said it has been dropped once, and I'm still thinking the rear sight on the fixed carry handle is skewed, but I'll work that problem another day. It seems to shoot more or less true at the distances it was designed for, and I've got used to more frequent cleaning compared to my 5.56 pattern rifles.
I'm glad I got this rifle, and have ordered the new modern version, the Colt 6951, from HogSniper at High Rock Outfitters, for IDPA and USPSA competitions...
Before casing up the rifle, I popped it open and the upper and lower were absolutely a mess, with brass particles everywhere, even down the bore (well, something was down there). Took it home, disassembled and cleaned it, and locked the upper on the bench while I marked off 25 yards, stuck up a target, and looked down the bore to rough sight it in, followed by the irons, and then a new red dot for the carry handle. Taking it back tomorrow and will run 200 rounds through it again.
Thinking this through, it was just as dirty after two sessions as it is after 1-2 months of shooting without much more than a quick spray of clp on a bore snake and running it through once or twice weekly. It's a durable rifle and holds up well. My brother, a retired LEO, bought it in 1995 and said he cleaned it once in 10 years, and unsure of the number of rounds that went through it. He said it has been dropped once, and I'm still thinking the rear sight on the fixed carry handle is skewed, but I'll work that problem another day. It seems to shoot more or less true at the distances it was designed for, and I've got used to more frequent cleaning compared to my 5.56 pattern rifles.
I'm glad I got this rifle, and have ordered the new modern version, the Colt 6951, from HogSniper at High Rock Outfitters, for IDPA and USPSA competitions...
- Jul 29, 2014
- 49,995
Could the "brass" particles be from plated bullets?
It is important to, if you are finding an inordinate amount of brass shavings inside your gun, grab a few pieces of fired brass from that session. That brass will go a long way in diagnosing and or preventing a future problem.
It is important to, if you are finding an inordinate amount of brass shavings inside your gun, grab a few pieces of fired brass from that session. That brass will go a long way in diagnosing and or preventing a future problem.
boss281
Ultimate Member
I did, almost all of them. Nothing to mention other than being really fouled except for ONE round which was a bit crimped. A nice guy named "Matt" was shooting two 9mms (a "Kriss" and Beretta) a few benches down, and let me look at his brass. Pretty fouled up, perhaps not as much of mine.
If the rain holds off I'll head to the range again and take photos tomorrow...
If the rain holds off I'll head to the range again and take photos tomorrow...
rayrevolver
Active Member
- Jul 26, 2012
- 422
Could the fouling and particles be from the case being ripped out prematurely?
http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/
For what its worth, I was directed this this link where the guy talks about generalized weights for bolts using blowback systems. For 9mm, the weight is 1.7 lbs or 27 oz (this would be the bolt + buffer on a 9mm AR). He states the spring force has no real affect on holding the bolt closed during intial ignition.
I know my 9mm Spinta bolt carrier is about 15.5oz, so I was trying get close to a 12oz buffer without spending an arm and a leg. So far, my combined weight is 25.5oz or 1.59 lbs.
The Colt 9mm buffer is 5.5 oz, so I imagine it is lightly buffered. I wonder what would happen if you ran a 10oz or more buffer and if it would help your problems?
http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/
For what its worth, I was directed this this link where the guy talks about generalized weights for bolts using blowback systems. For 9mm, the weight is 1.7 lbs or 27 oz (this would be the bolt + buffer on a 9mm AR). He states the spring force has no real affect on holding the bolt closed during intial ignition.
I know my 9mm Spinta bolt carrier is about 15.5oz, so I was trying get close to a 12oz buffer without spending an arm and a leg. So far, my combined weight is 25.5oz or 1.59 lbs.
The Colt 9mm buffer is 5.5 oz, so I imagine it is lightly buffered. I wonder what would happen if you ran a 10oz or more buffer and if it would help your problems?
boss281
Ultimate Member
Interesting note in that link, but before I do anything I'm going to get on the phone with Colt. I especially like the last line " Like I do, you should STRAP ANY NEW GUN TO A TREE and fire off dozens of rounds remotely from a safe location...". Now how the heck do you fire a gun "remotely from a safe distance"???
A few comments... the Current "Colt" mags are rebranded ASC's.
QC with the ASC's can be questionable so make sure to check the insides for burrs. A 1gal paint stir stick wrapped in 300grit sandpaper will easily smooth out those burrs that can cause the follower to stick ( even if just briefly ).
Brownells sells rebranded Metalforms with their own special coating... on sale frequently for $30... these have worked flawlessly in my 16" PSA Colt pattern.
PSA also sells rebranded Metalforms... they must be degreased of the packing shipping oil inside in order to function smoothly... Cheapest I have bought them is $13 / 32rd mag... a heck of a deal.
The comments concerning a heavier spring and buffer are dead on.
The "bark and blast" from the OEM carbine spring and buffer was more then needed for reliable function.
I switched over to a .308 Tubbs spring and a KAK configurable 9MM buffer.
That alone changed the blowback cyclic action from "Linda Blair" in the Exorcist to Bambi.
Try not to go to heavy with the buffer , so as to avoid muzzle dip from the BCG slamming home... my configurable buffer weighs about 7.5oz.
As for clean burning / less fouling... I have started using Winc. SuperClean 9mm... it is shocking how much cleaner this ammo shoots.
So maybe a change in ammo will help... if the cases are clean inside after firing, then consider it to be reasonably clean burning... I have seen some filthy cases and some clean... so it is worth a look.
And while no one has mentioned it.... don't bother with a 9mm muzzle brake on a 16" barrel .... there simply isn't enough volume of gas to effectively make use of the muzzle brake.
Also, for those interested... I chrono'd 120+ different OEM 9MM loads from my 16" Colt pattern.
The results are here...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/712312_.html&page=1&anc=7429025#i7429025
QC with the ASC's can be questionable so make sure to check the insides for burrs. A 1gal paint stir stick wrapped in 300grit sandpaper will easily smooth out those burrs that can cause the follower to stick ( even if just briefly ).
Brownells sells rebranded Metalforms with their own special coating... on sale frequently for $30... these have worked flawlessly in my 16" PSA Colt pattern.
PSA also sells rebranded Metalforms... they must be degreased of the packing shipping oil inside in order to function smoothly... Cheapest I have bought them is $13 / 32rd mag... a heck of a deal.
The comments concerning a heavier spring and buffer are dead on.
The "bark and blast" from the OEM carbine spring and buffer was more then needed for reliable function.
I switched over to a .308 Tubbs spring and a KAK configurable 9MM buffer.
That alone changed the blowback cyclic action from "Linda Blair" in the Exorcist to Bambi.
Try not to go to heavy with the buffer , so as to avoid muzzle dip from the BCG slamming home... my configurable buffer weighs about 7.5oz.
As for clean burning / less fouling... I have started using Winc. SuperClean 9mm... it is shocking how much cleaner this ammo shoots.
So maybe a change in ammo will help... if the cases are clean inside after firing, then consider it to be reasonably clean burning... I have seen some filthy cases and some clean... so it is worth a look.
And while no one has mentioned it.... don't bother with a 9mm muzzle brake on a 16" barrel .... there simply isn't enough volume of gas to effectively make use of the muzzle brake.
Also, for those interested... I chrono'd 120+ different OEM 9MM loads from my 16" Colt pattern.
The results are here...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/712312_.html&page=1&anc=7429025#i7429025
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
Another step in the evolution of my competition PCC. It's just too dang heavy. I noticed at the Steel Challenge match that I'm overswinging between transitions. I don't notice it as much in USPSA as I'm doing more double-taps on targets in that discipline. Looks like I'm going to have to get a second, lighter upper.
- Jul 29, 2014
- 49,995
boss281
Ultimate Member
I've ordered 250 rounds of the 90g zinc core. It runs a little faster than I'd like, but I'm curious about the clean burning claims. Winchester also has a WinClean 9mm in 147g, but it's subsonic and I'm not sure it would cycle properly. I'm ordering a box of 20 though just to try it.
Thanks for all the feedback.
rayrevolver
Active Member
- Jul 26, 2012
- 422
All 9mm 147gr is subsonic, so it should cycle a normally setup semi-auto.
Is the 147gr winclean known to be light loaded?
- Jul 29, 2014
- 49,995
It should cycle fine.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
When mine works, it's awesome with 147s. When it gets fussy, it doesn't matter what I shoot.
Saturday at the Steel Challenge match, one of my magazines faltered twice. I found an appropriate brush to clean them out, so I took them apart. The flaky one had a hitch about halfway down, and I had to use a rod to push the follower down. I cleaned them both out with brake cleaner and the brush. No more hitch. I figured why not look in the Colt mags? I took one apart, it was super clean inside. But the lips were too far apart. I used a vise to squeeze the mouth on one, I'll be testing them all later this week.
Saturday at the Steel Challenge match, one of my magazines faltered twice. I found an appropriate brush to clean them out, so I took them apart. The flaky one had a hitch about halfway down, and I had to use a rod to push the follower down. I cleaned them both out with brake cleaner and the brush. No more hitch. I figured why not look in the Colt mags? I took one apart, it was super clean inside. But the lips were too far apart. I used a vise to squeeze the mouth on one, I'll be testing them all later this week.
I don't want to seem like a defeatist, but if I was having as many mag problems as you seem to be having, I'd definitely be considering a different platform. If you're shooting steel seriously with a PCC, I feel like an MPX would be the ticket, as the operating system isn't straight-blowback and it has more modern magazines.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
I'm too used to loading AR magazines to switch to something else. Even Glock mag ARs use a nonstandard way to insert magazines.
I agree that Glock mags load weird, but MPX mags should be fairly similar to standard AR-15 magazines.
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