Gifting to a family member out of state in NY

My coworker wants to buy his dad a glock 43. I'm not on the up and up for NY laws, but as far as interstate commerce in arms, he related to me that he wants to buy the gun here in MD, drive it up to NY where his dad lives, give him the gun as a gift, then "worry about the transfer later." I told him to just have his MD dealer send it to his dad's NY dealer, and he insists that he wants to hand his dad the gun as a gift. Am I wrong? NY state only accepts FFL transfers, not individuals, right? And you can't just take a gun to another state and give it to someone, even if it's your dad, right?

Is your co-worker familiar with NY gun laws? Traveling to NY and being found with a handgun--even a validly owned one--means you can go to jail big time.

Even if your co-worker was not found to have the gun by the police, it could not be transferred because for the FFL there it is not even supposed to be in the state. He could not do the deal.

Then, there's the problem of lying on the purchase paperwork when they ask about they buyer being the actual recipient of the firearm.

The only legal process is to have the firearm transferred BY A LOCAL FFL to NY where transfer paperwork is done by the father at an FFL there.. But that's only good if the son has found a really sweet deal in MD. But then he is paying transfer costs and shipping charges that can easily add up to more than $100.

The cost effective, legal way is for the son to go to NY and take his dad shopping for a G-43 and do everything, legally, there in NY. Son provides money to dad before or after shopping, but not at the gun store because of the red flags that raises for the gun store owner if the $$ handoff is spotted in the store.

Sorry, firearms laws for handguns take the Big Reveal Surprise out of the equation.

What you just described is a straw purchase. It is a felony.

He should cut his dad a check for the cost of the Glock and leave it at that.

NY also requires that a citizen first get a pistol permit in their county of residence before being able to possess a handgun. I cannot even travel there to visit my family in Rochester with any of my handguns without a permit from there. Extremely strict.

My knowledge of NY firearms law is not encyclopedic , but the following is as close as.ge could come :

Locate and pay for G43 . Have shipped to FFL convient to Dad in NYS. Drive to Dad's . Hustle Dad into car by some pretext, drive to LGS, where by prearrangement the staff will show Dad "his" G43 while you yell surprise ! Dad then initiates what he has to do with paperwork.


Is your friend's father already a handgun owner ? If so , relatively easy by NY standards to add one to existing permit. If not he would need to first aquire a Permit. Even just to keep at home, a Premises Permit is required. Permit procedures and time frames vary greatly from County to County. By NY standards, anything less than 12months start to finish to recieve a Premises Permit is considered Fast.

Legal. Illegal. Those are your choices.

You have enjoyed some legal answers/approaches.

Your friend needs to decide if he's staying within the law or not. Going outside NY state law by friend has the bonus of implicating friends dad later on...

Great answers by the way. I say buy online and have shipped to dad's closest FFL. FFL to FFL.

But then IANAL.

NOT a straw purchase. A gift is not a straw purchase. If the father sent money to the child to buy the gun for them, that would be a straw purchase.

But illegal anyway, unless you friend dies. Federal law says that transfers between residents of different states must go through an FFL. In the case of handguns, the FFL has to be in the state of residence of the receiving party.

Also, as has been stated, it is likely to be illegal based on NY state law.

There are several felonies here, federal and state. Prosecutors from multiple jurisdictions are going to fight over your coworker's bleeding carcass (metaphorically).

There was a big case a few years back where a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) in, I think Virginia was severely prosecuted just for using his law enforcement discount to buy a gun for his father. In that case, everything was done properly, with the transfer going through Federal Firearms Licencees, but because the buyer used his professional discount, it was deemed a straw purchase. His career was ruined, and I think he went to jail.

I'm sure someone here can find a reference to the case. I think the LEO's father lived in New York, too.

Anyway, I wonder if your coworker isn't one of these people who insists that we really do need tougher, common sense gun laws, because it's just too easy for people to get guns. We hear about those types all the time who are shocked when they themselves try to buy a gun.

People like that believe anyone can just buy a handgun at a gun show, or over the internet. No way.

Even if your coworker decides to deliberately break the law (because dammit, he's special), he's going to be in for a big surprise when he goes to buy that Glock here in Maryland.

He'll need a Handgun Qualification License, which costs several hundred dollars and takes several weeks. He'll need to be fingerprinted, take a training class, fill out piles of paperwork, and then wait while the Maryland State Police run extensive background checks on him. It's not unusual for these background checks to turn up long forgotten disqualifications from sealed records in other states, too.

Only after he passes the background checks (and your coworker sounds like the type who would not pass) and gets his Maryland HQL, can he go shopping for the gun here in Maryland. He'l probably be surprised by the pile of federal and state forms he'll have to fill out, and he sounds like the kind of guy who will complain self-righteously, "I just spent a month getting my HQL! Why should I have to do this a second time! I'm not a criminal!"

But he is a criminal, big time, state and federal. He's knowingly and deliberately making a straw purchase, and committing multiple serious crimes by doing so. And he still hasn't gotten the Glock!

After he breaks multiple state and federal laws by filling out the purchase forms, he's going to really be annoyed to learn that he has to go through the entire background check a second time, with a mandatory seven day waiting period. In addition to a federal, FBI-administered background check, he gets the entire Maryland State Police check repeated, the one that scrutinizes the sealed juvenile records from other states. By the way, if he thinks he can lie about that stupid fistfight in Atlantic City back in 1993, he might be surprised when they prosecute him for that one alone, even before they catch on to the straw purchase angle.

Assuming he manages to illegally acquire the Glock here in Maryland (and I'll bet he can't - I'll bet he's Prohibited), he's going to involve himself and his father in a mountain of crimes in New York.

The gun may not even enter the state of New York until all the New York permit procedures are 100% complete. New York is extremely strict about that, and they do prosecute. But your coworker is special, so the laws don't apply to him.

If that gun shows up in New York, and his father tries to register it on a New York permit, the scrutiny is going to land him in a New York jail. Then they are going to come after your coworker, and he is going to jail, too. From jail to real prison, probably federal prison.

If the father decides to not to get a New York permit for it, then he will live as a criminal for as long as he possesses that ticking time bomb. If he ever gets caught with that illegal, unregistered pistol, New York is going to prosecute him severely. The intense scrutiny will reveal the illegality of the initial straw purchase and illegal interstate transfer. Then Maryland State Police and Federal ATF are going to come after your idiot coworker.

Your coworker sounds like the kind of guy who thinks we need tougher gun laws, "because it's just too easy for people to get guns", but thinks he's special, so the law doesn't apply to him. People like that often are already Prohibited, that is, legally ineligible to own guns. Sometimes they already do own a few guns, and are surprised when they try to buy another, and the now-alerted police show up to confiscate the old guns they already have.


----edit to add:

Pinecone might be right, that it isn't a straw purchase, although that might not prevent the buyer from being initially arrested, even if he beats it in court. Seems to me that's what hung up the LEO I mentioned: his father sent him a check and wrote "For Glock" on it. But there are still numerous felonies being contemplated here. Illegal interstate transfer is a major federal felony, and there are multiple New York felonies for both father and sun. But Pinecone might be right: they might drop the straw purchase angle as part of the plea deal, even if they prosecute him for lying about that little marijuana thing back in 1997.

I stand by everything else I posted.

I have purchased two firearms for my son while standing in the FFL's shop.

completely legal as the person on the 4473 was the actual recipient. All I did was pay for it.

Kind of a different scenario here. This goes beyond a simple in-state 4473 sale.

Second that with DC-W comment. NY is full of it. I would not even dare to try this nonsense unless it changes sooner than later. I have family in Rochester and I cannot even bring it. It is sad where some counties or cities in NY State is a little absurd due to violence.

By the way, the OP, Butcher was the 16th person to join Maryland Shooters, over twelve years ago.
He's avoided the post-whorin' ways of some others!

In NY you have 15 days after the owner dies to legally dispose of his handguns. Then the police come and take them. $1000 fine and a year in jail. Something to think about.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/deceased-gun-owners-ny-law_n_6173488.html

Threeband said:

Kind of a different scenario here. This goes beyond a simple in-state 4473 sale.

Click to expand...

My point was it's not illegal to pay for a gun if the actual recipient is the one on the 4473.

Completely legit.

Threeband was referring to the Abramski case involving the officer receiving a check (with memo "for Glock") from his uncle to purchase a discounted Glock 19 but stating it was for himself in the 4473 ...

http://www.npr.org/2014/06/16/322650543/supreme-court-rules-against-straw-gun-purchases

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

98% what threeband said.

A legitimate gift is ok, with no payment, reimbursement from the ultimate recipient.

A giftER could initiate the process in MD without an HQL IF they had the FFL directly transfer it to out of state FFL without the giftER ever taking ownership in their name .( This would also eliminate any possibility of them personally delivering to giftEE.

All of the listed gazillion NY felonies would apply if the transfer didn't take place using NY dealer from the get go, following proper NY procedures.

Biggfoot44 said:

98% what threeband said.

A legitimate gift is ok, with no payment, reimbursement from the ultimate recipient.

A giftER could initiate the process in MD without an HQL IF they had the FFL directly transfer it to out of state FFL without the giftER ever taking ownership in their name .( This would also eliminate any possibility of them personally delivering to giftEE.

All of the listed gazillion NY felonies would apply if the transfer didn't take place using NY dealer from the get go, following proper NY procedures.

Click to expand...

That sounds 100% right to me, but notice New York law is strict, complicated, and full of traps for the unwary.

At least there's no danger of prosecution from loading eight rounds in that G43 magazine, unless he gets an extended mag!

Bob A said:

In NY you have 15 days after the owner dies to legally dispose of his handguns. Then the police come and take them. $1000 fine and a year in jail. Something to think about.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/deceased-gun-owners-ny-law_n_6173488.html

Click to expand...

15 days as if the family doesn't have more pressing things to take care within that time. Id like to know how NY disposes of them. Im sure they will make a profit from it

swinokur said:

My point was it's not illegal to pay for a gun if the actual recipient is the one on the 4473.

Completely legit.

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I've seen two gun stores (well, a legit gun store and a "big box" store) refuse to complete the sale in this scenario. I know it's legal, but the big box store claimed it wasn't legal and the gun store claimed that fear of ATF (more likely MSP) since it looked like a straw purchase.

Both were in MD, over 15 years ago. New York probably isn't any better, I'd just write Dad a check after the sale.

I'm not arguing the ignorance of some gun stiores behavior, only that it's completely legal. My LGS in Rockville has done it twice for me. I try to aviod any business that is too lazy or ignorant to know the law.

Threeband said:

By the way, the OP, Butcher was the 16th person to join Maryland Shooters, over twelve years ago.
He's avoided the post-whorin' ways of some others!

Click to expand...

OP is an OG