"Possess" & "Receive" meaning in SB281

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  • zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    Are you referring to Chow v. State from 2006? Believe that was a case in Prince Georges County that made it through the Court of Special Appeals and the Court of Appeals.

    A DC police officer loaned one of his handguns to a buddy that had had his guns taken away by the police. The loan was so the buddy could see if he liked the handgun and if he wanted to buy it. The Court held that a loan is not a transfer. So, we have the definition of "transfer" sorted out via Chow. Thing is, it does not deal with "receive" or "possess".


    Ahhh, I see what you are saying.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Thank you for posting the holding. I am too tired to go looking for it tonight. The part I put in bold is the part that scares me. What does "obtain" mean? Does it mean "purchase"? Does everybody need a HQL after October 1, 2013 to be able to obtain a handgun, and therefore to be the recipient of a loaned handgun?

    Not at all clear. Don't think obtain is limited to just purchases. Picking one up off the ground might qualify
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Not at all clear. Don't think obtain is limited to just purchases. Picking one up off the ground might qualify

    Good point actually. So, obtaining one from a friend falls into the holding.

    After October 1, 2013 though, does a person need a HQL to obtain a handgun, whether it is lying on the street (i.e., found) or from a friend? I think we already know the HQL is going to be needed to buy or rent one. The big question is whether one is needed to borrow a handgun, while the owner is standing right next to you or out of the owner's presence. My head is actually hurting thinking about all this. Much easier to stick to hunting with non-regulated firearms as a hobby.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    I will still loan my regulated guns to family and friends even underage persons who can not qualify for a HQL. I will do it at the gun range in Pennsylvania where they don't have stupid laws. Then we will probably have lunch and visit a gun store and buy gas all in Pennsylvania to the loss of Maryland business and taxes.
     

    rob-cubed

    In need of moderation
    Sep 24, 2009
    5,387
    Holding the line in Baltimore
    Exactly, a <21 individual who does not qualify to own a handgun under current law is otherwise not prohibited from holding/shooting one. Nor is someone who has never passed a background check for a regulated item prohibited from holding/shooting one. I realize the HQL imposes its own unique language and limitations, but find it hard to believe a law written to restrict sales/ownership would be extended to temporary possession. Even in this gun-grabbing environment!
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Exactly, a <21 individual who does not qualify to own a handgun under current law is otherwise not prohibited from holding/shooting one. Nor is someone who has never passed a background check for a regulated item prohibited from holding/shooting one. I realize the HQL imposes its own unique language and limitations, but find it hard to believe a law written to restrict sales/ownership would be extended to temporary possession. Even in this gun-grabbing environment!

    It is hard to believe, I agree. The uncertainty greatly affects me. I'm a NRA certified handgun instructor, a BSA adult leader and I have kids under 21. If "receive" means temporary possession at the range, I can't teach anyone under the age of 21 or even loan one of my pistols to my wife at the range if she doesn't have a HQL. The whole thing is totally absurd. Let's see what the MSP does in regs. If they don't resolve this, it may be time for a lawsuit, once SB 281 takes effect.
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    It is hard to believe, I agree. The uncertainty greatly affects me. I'm a NRA certified handgun instructor, a BSA adult leader and I have kids under 21. If "receive" means temporary possession at the range, I can't teach anyone under the age of 21 or even loan one of my pistols to my wife at the range if she doesn't have a HQL. The whole thing is totally absurd. Let's see what the MSP does in regs. If they don't resolve this, it may be time for a lawsuit, once SB 281 takes effect.

    If this is the case, then it will be imposable to obtain an HQL.

    You need to fire the handgun to get the permit, but you need the permit to fire the gun?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    If this is the case, then it will be imposable to obtain an HQL.

    You need to fire the handgun to get the permit, but you need the permit to fire the gun?

    Actually, the HQL course does not require live fire. SB 281 was amended at the last minute to delete any proficiency requirement so there is no live fire at all required -- just "classroom instruction" and an "orientation"

    Under Section 5-117.1(D)(3), that HQL course must include:

    (II) CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION ON:
    1. STATE FIREARM LAW;
    2. HOME FIREARM SAFETY; AND
    3. HANDGUN MECHANISMS AND OPERATION; AND
    (III) A FIREARMS ORIENTATION COMPONENT THAT DEMONSTRATES THE PERSON’S SAFE OPERATION AND HANDLING OF A
    FIREARM;

    While the handling of actual handguns of various types is appropriate in order to teach "handgun mechanisms and operation" and provide an orientation that "demonstrates the person's safe operation and handling of a firearm," nothing actually requires actual handguns -- you could use models -- sort of. OK, that would be utterly stupid. That you, Governor, for imposing this craziness upon us all.
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    Actually, the HQL course does not require live fire. Under Section 5-117.1(D)(3), that course must include:

    (II) CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION ON:
    1. STATE FIREARM LAW;
    2. HOME FIREARM SAFETY; AND
    3. HANDGUN MECHANISMS AND OPERATION; AND
    (III) A FIREARMS ORIENTATION COMPONENT THAT DEMONSTRATES THE PERSON’S SAFE OPERATION AND HANDLING OF A
    FIREARM;

    While the handling of actual handguns of various types is appropriate in order to teach "handgun mechanisms and operation" and provide an orientation that "demonstrates the person's safe operation and handling of a firearm," nothing actually requires actual handguns. And SB 281 was amended at the last minute to delete any proficiency requirement so there is no live fire at all required -- just "classroom instruction" and an "orientation"

    Can you demonstrate "Safe Operation" of a firearm without firing it?
    That would be like demonstrating "Safe Operation" of an automobile without driving it? Competence would require hitting your target, operation could require firing the weapon? IE: Can you fire it without dropping it?
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,367
    SoMD / West PA
    Can you demonstrate "Safe Operation" of a firearm without firing it?
    That would be like demonstrating "Safe Operation" of an automobile without driving it? Competence would require hitting your target, operation could require firing the weapon? IE: Can you fire it without dropping it?

    MD DNR instruction requires a livefire to demonstrate safe operation of a firearm.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I will still loan my regulated guns to family and friends even underage persons who can not qualify for a HQL. I will do it at the gun range in Pennsylvania where they don't have stupid laws. Then we will probably have lunch and visit a gun store and buy gas all in Pennsylvania to the loss of Maryland business and taxes.

    Good solution. What is the name and location of the range in PA?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Can you demonstrate "Safe Operation" of a firearm without firing it?
    That would be like demonstrating "Safe Operation" of an automobile without driving it? Competence would require hitting your target, operation could require firing the weapon? IE: Can you fire it without dropping it?

    Yes, of course. But, SB 281 was amended to drop the live fire because requiring it would create an almost impossible barrier and thus ensure its invalidity in court. There are simply not enough instructors or, even more importantly, enough ranges in Maryland to teach people. There were 10s of thousands of purchases of regulated firearms last year in Maryland. If only a small fraction of those folks were new purchasers, you could never teach alll the new purchasers if live fire were required. The HQL requirement would become a defacto ban and thus run smack into Heller.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,367
    SoMD / West PA
    Yes, of course. But, SB 281 was amended to drop the live fire because requiring it would create an almost impossible barrier and thus ensure its invalidity in court. There are simply not enough instructors or, even more importantly, enough ranges in Maryland to teach people. There were 10s of thousands of purchases of regulated firearms last year in Maryland. If only a small fraction of those folks were new purchasers, you could never teach alll the new purchasers if live fire were required. The HQL requirement would become a defacto ban and thus run smack into Heller.

    SB281 specifically dropped the livefire language.

    However, every program spelled out in SB281 contains a livefire requirement in the cirriculum(s).
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    SB281 specifically dropped the livefire language.

    However, every program spelled out in SB281 contains a livefire requirement in the cirriculum(s).

    This.

    I believe they drop it since it is somewhat explained in other part of the new law.

    Its like the transporting regulated in and out of MD. Frosh himself said it. Its already part of the law hence the proposed change/revision to insert to the law was dropped.
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    Yes, of course. But, SB 281 was amended to drop the live fire because requiring it would create an almost impossible barrier and thus ensure its invalidity in court. There are simply not enough instructors or, even more importantly, enough ranges in Maryland to teach people. There were 10s of thousands of purchases of regulated firearms last year in Maryland. If only a small fraction of those folks were new purchasers, you could never teach alll the new purchasers if live fire were required. The HQL requirement would become a defacto ban and thus run smack into Heller.

    The MSP taking over 100 days to ND is a defacto Ban already. (According to SOME dealers)
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    The MSP taking over 100 days to ND is a defacto Ban already. (According to SOME dealers)

    EVERY dealer has the ability to release on the 8th day, even if the MSP takes a year to come back with a ND. It is those dealers and possibly their liability insurance carriers that are imposing the de facto ban. Try to remember this when shopping for your next firearm, ammo, etc. Try not to support them if you do not have to. Why should we support dealers that are more than happy to infringe on our 2nd Amendment Right. Heck, I used to split my ordering of hunting and fishing gear between Cabela's and Outdoor World, but now that Outdoor World insists on waiting for the ND to come back, all my buying will be done at Cabela's. I am lucky enough to not have to care about saving a dollar here or a dollar there and can shop a lot of times based upon principles.
     

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