Experiences with 223 barrels

I am kind of curious with everyone's experiences with 223 barrels. What are people typically getting with them for accuracy. Yes, I went cheap. Yes, I will NOT be doing that again. But I've got them now, so that's what I have (for now anyway). I got the one problem barrel returned and its replacement in. I hit the range with the new BCA barrel and the Stoner barrel (both 16", nitride 223 wylde, the Stoner is 5R, both are 1:8).

They seem roughly comparable in accuracy. I will need to wait to do an ultimate accuracy test for a day with a replacement scope, as mine bit the dust. So I can't rely on what the accuracy was exactly (I also had a 3MOA red dot and 3x magnifier). Scope didn't seem so bad that it was likely throwing results WAY off, but I can't be sure.

Anyway, most stuff was getting around 4MOA or a little worse with Federal and PPU cheap stuff. Sadly PPU 75gr BTHP also was around 3.5MOA. A couple like PPU M855 and Federal XM855 were more like 6MOA which was making me real sad.

Then I tested some Fiocchi 50gr Vtip Extrema and both clocked in at about 1.5MOA. I then tested some Hornady Black 75gr BTHP I had with me and both clocked in slightly over 1MOA. I guess cheap ammo, cheap barrels, cheap results.

It wasn't like I had 20 different types of ammo with me and federal and PPU 223 and 5.56 ammos have always given me bad results in everything I tried. Sadly IMI M193 and M885 also gave me pretty bad results (though better than the federal and PPU). Though the M193 5 shot groups were more like 2.5MOA, but there was almost always a flier from the main group that opened it up to 4. I guess that's the consistency bit from cheap ammo (or maybe cheap barrel?). They seem to manage better results in my 20", with about 2.5MOA and a little more consistent in my 20" and the M885 usually is more like 1.5MOA, though I do get occasional fliers with both.

I also wasn't slow firing this stuff super carefully with plenty of time to cool (they are fluted HBAR barrels) as I was on a time clock to get the testing done and I also had a 24" 6.5 Grendel upper with me to test (spoilers, Wolf shot around 4MOA out of it and Hornady BTHP was close to 1MOA).

Interestingly I'd never shot the 75gr Hornady black through my 20" (its also a stoner barrel, but plain SS). I put the last 5 rounds I had through it as well as some of the PPU 75gr. As usually the PPU turned in around a 1.5MOA 9 shot group (for 5, its closer to 1). The Hornady I think was .5MOA. Hard to tell, there may have been a flier off the paper, but I only found 3 holes in the paper and one was slightly elongated. So either three went through about the same hole, or one went at least 4" from the group and off paper (this was at 50yds). I am going with .5MOA, as a flier THAT far away seems ridiculously unlikely.

I am buying more Hornady black 75gr as soon as I can. A lot more to test though to see if I can find something I can stock higher and deeper that gives vaguely reasonable accuracy.

It is still a lot better than the original BCA 16" barrel which was turning in 5-10MOA groups and even match ammo wasn't doing better than 4MOA. Don't need my 16" to be my match upper (that is what my 20" is for), but I am hoping I can find something that manages under 3MOA for something M193 or 55gr 223 FMJ equivalent (or M885/62gr FMJ). Might not be in the cards for these barrels.

If you want to test the absolute accuracy potential of the bbls , use FGMM .

My personal experience varies widely. with a "generic" Classic Firearms barrel (made by BCA), my mini 14 on a bad day was more accurate. It would be useful as a club, but thats it. OTOH, with my Faxon heavy barrel (which I bought to replace the BCA), I average 1 MOA with cheap** ammo and and sub MOA with Match Ammo. When I say sub-MOA, it depends in the ammo, but I can get .5 MOA with some match ammo.

**Cheap brass ammo: like American Eagle or Wolf Gold. Wolf Steel or Red Army will be a about 2.

Imo, most of the m193/m855 is 2 to 4 moa ammo. 2 moa on a good day in a top shelf barrel. If you can find stuff loaded with the Hornadt 55 gr fmjbt that's the most accurate of the open base bullets. M193 is better than M855 IMO.

Go read the testing by Molon over on ar15.com

My experiences
2x Larue very accurate < 1 MOA
2x Lothar Walther very accurate < 1 MOA
1x Armalite very accurate 1 MOA
2x Criterion very accurate
1x Critical Capabilities. Very accurate 1 to 1.5 MOA
2x PSA FN button rifles, good enough 2 moa ish
2x PSA FN CHF good enough 2 moa ish
2x PSA premium Wilson blank good enough 2 moa ish
2x Rainier select decent less than 2 moa
1x Rainier Ultra Match. Should shoot better based on what it cost. 1 to 1.5 MOA
1x Stoner $50 barrel. 3 MOA. For 50 bucks, what do you want?
1x Stag 3 gun barrel, does not feed. Work in progress
1x Model 1 sales. Functioned, didn't shoot enough
1x Faxon, shot okay 1.5 moa ish
1x Wilson Combat haven't shot it enough

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Larue or Lothar Walther or Criterion.

Bottom line is cheap barrels and cheap AMMO do not give stellar results. For the money Black Hole weaponry. I have three AR15’s in 223. Two AR15 in 264 LBC. Two LR308,s in 308 win, Two LR308’s in 260 Remington. So 9 AR’s . 8 of them are Black Hole P3 barrels. With the right AMMO they are all sub moa rifles. With standard bulk 193 or m855 the can shoot 1.5 moa. Once in a while there stars line up and the can shoot military surplus ammo sub moa even bug holes but this is an anomaly. So decent barrel with decent ammo can give you consistent results. Decent barrels and military surplus give you 1.5 to 2 moa. Cheap plinking stuff ( Wolf, Tula ). 1.5 to 4 moa. Consistency come from decent barrels and decent ammo. Black Hole checks the box’s that count. Is what it is.


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I do some reading on testing methodologies.
http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Range_Statistics

3 groups, 5 shots each. Same piece of paper. Don't throw out "fliers". 6 round groups are slightly better.

1 MOA or better with M193, M855, Wolf Steel, etc. Pffft. No. Just No.

Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills, etc. Yeah Possibly.

Handloads, Now we're talking!

atblis said:

I do some reading on testing methodologies.
http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Range_Statistics

3 groups, 5 shots each. Same piece of paper. Don't throw out "fliers". 6 round groups are slightly better.

1 MOA or better with M193, M855, Wolf Steel, etc. Pffft. No. Just No.

Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills, etc. Yeah Possibly.

Handloads, Now we're talking!

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I generally shoot 2-4x 5-shot groups depending on how much time and ammo I have handy. I don’t throw out fliers unless I know I screwed up. I usually care about the average or worst if I only shot two groups.

If I threw out a flier most of my 5-shot groups would decrease by half for most of the crappy ammo. If I took only the best group and threw out a flier, half again.

Most of the ammo I could put 3 out of 5 rounds in to a 2” group at 100yds. Sometimes I might put 4 out of 5 in to that. None of the cheap stuff would do it 5 for 5.

The M855 stuff was the only stuff that might not do that. The various M193 and 55gr 223 I tested would.

The Fiocchi 50gr Vmax and Hornady Black 75 would have done 5 for 5 out of every group I shot in to less than a 1.5” group.

I am planning on starting 223 hand-loading soon. So, maybe I can squeeze nice accuracy for inexpensive cost. Dunno.

I am planning an “expensive” barrel next. Just, probably not soon as I’ve got too many other needs right now.

You will find that with a 1:8 twist barrel, heavier bullets will be better. 62 gr is the lightest I would go. 75 gr is ideal. It is possible to over stabilize a bullet by spinning it too fast.

I will echo what others have said though. You need quality ammo and a good barrel to see accuracy

I do not believe in the overstabilized bullet theory. Crappy bullets will have less force, rpms, but quality bullets can be spun very fast with no effects.

Overstabilization is a thing, but in an AR platform chambered in 223/556 I doubt people are experiencing it unless they are regularly shooting long range. I am also skeptical people could tell the difference between overstabilization of light bullets, and the fact that at long range heavier bullets simply have more inertia and are less susceptible to aerodynamic forces and whatnot.

The "overstablized" bullet thing is simply a bullet spun so fast because of twist rate and velocity it may deform and/or fracture from centrifugal forces and light jackets. Rifling which cuts deep into the jackets causing the lead core to start "seeping" through the cut jacket will show up on targets as dark swirl patterns on the paper around the bullet hole.

Bullets too light for a twist and velocity may not be stablized simply because their short length prevents them from being properly 'gripped' by the rifling and the bullets skid through the barrel, like stripping the treads off of an overtighted bolt.

lazarus said:

I am planning on starting 223 hand-loading soon. So, maybe I can squeeze nice accuracy for inexpensive cost. Dunno.

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This will be your best bet as you can tune them to your rifle. My chrome lined 20" Colt barrel shoots around 2, maybe 2.5 MOA with Federal ball ammo, but the hand loads I have bring it down to a little over 1 MOA, with a muzzle velocity that's 120 fps higher than ball ammo.

OTH, it may change nothing with accuracy. Only one way to find out...

Overstabilized can be a Thing , but there is way huge margin of error with minimal effects, compared to understabilized .

I encourage anyone interested in ballistics to read Bryan Litz books. It's a bit technical, but easy reading. Us service rifle shooters will shoot 52 grain bullets in our 7 twist barrel at 100 or 200 yards. Now, overstabilized projectiles do occur in artillery, when the bullet doesn't nose over into the flight path, but nothing small arms can do.

I don't believe the overstabilized stuff either. Once it is stabilized, it is stabilized. What is being referred to as overstabilized is actually an entirely different set of problems. Park ranger is right.

I was about to comment on the 52s. I've found them to be the most consistently accurate of the short range bullets in all of my ARs. 1 in 7s shout them well.

You could start hand-loading without much hassle. Buy some new Wolf Gold primed brass, some powder, bullets, a seating die, and a Lee hand press, and you can start cranking out your own ammo that'll be much more accurate than most factory ammo.

I have a 20” WOA SDM barrel that is sub MOA. Probably my favorite AR


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20” WOA Shilen Ratchet rifled barrel. It’s been quite accurate. I have come to expect <1 MOA groups at 100yds with precision ammo. Surprisingly I had 6” groups at 500yds. With federal 55gr NATO I see about 2.5 MOA.

Ammo accuracy

I know I am a bit off topic but I went through an issue with my Savage Model 10 with a heavy 24 inch barrel. I was not getting the results I was looking for with a wide variety of ammo.

So, I looked up the exact ammo recommended by Savage for that rifle and barrel. Lo and hehold, now I am getting 1.5 inch groups at 200 yards when I put my mind to it. It was a much heavier grain bullet than I had been using (something like 175 grains), where everything I had been using was between 120 and 155 grains.

So, in my case, heavy was better, and the consistency of the groups was driven by the cost of the ammo. The expensive stuff was very consistent with no flyers. On the other hand, I do get surprising accuracy out of Brown Bear, russian 7.62x39. Surprising in my mind is around 4-5 inch groups at 200 yards.