Headspacing is to short?

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  • clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,032
    Elkton, MD
    This week I had 2 guys message me with problems with this brand of barrel.

    Failures to chamber live ammo and failures to close on a .223 GO.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    24,000
    Political refugee in WV
    Colt does not use a NO GO for manufacturing, they use a 5.56 GO which is different than a .223 GO. There are 12 HS Gauges made for .223 and 5.56.

    His Barrel or Bolt caused short headspace and it's not an performance enhancement.

    Since you know so much about the AR, perhaps you can share a photo of your workspace and your credentials.

    I'll share mine:
    Professional Gunsmith for Scott's Gunsmithing 13 years
    Technical AR15' Instructor for School of the American Rifle 3 years.

    BTW, the tools, gauges, and jigs are completely AR specific.

    There are a few more tools in the trailer than I remember. I also see your Orange Hammer of Doom (TM) (PP) is still in one piece. :D
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    24,000
    Political refugee in WV
    Those that say DEX ARMS was blowing smoke or that they never heard anything like they explained, or it's confusing....more then likely have never been in the industry to know what they are talking about. For most of us there are three headspace gauges: No Go, GO, Field. Well there are more especially for AR manufacturers. One is an assembly headspace gauge or manufacturers headspace gauge and is used during assembling the rifle. It could be considered a minimum Go gauges. DEX ARMS told you the truth. They are assembled a "little tight" and after a few rounds the parts wear in and are well within the GO limits. Colt also have a gauge that they use if the bolt on an AR 15 closes on a NO GO gauge and it use is to show if the rifle is safe and still serviceable.

    The internet forums are one of the worse places for correct information unless one of the manufacturers happens to be a member on such forum. The best place to go to is the manufacturer first or and real top rated professional gunsmith with expertise in the particular firearm you are having problems with.

    Sorry to be so hard on some of you guys, but this thread was just so interesting and funny to read.

    And this will not end well.

    I knew that this would raise hairs. The meaning about Colt's Go or No or whatever MEANT Colt uses gauges and one gauge they use for the service rifles to get more use out of them most gunsmiths wouldn't use.

    Raise hairs? You are jumping in water with one link of chain more than you can swim with.

    Nope not trolling. I would like to ask you question though. How many ten thousandths tight do you think his chamber is? If you sized a case and cammed over the press real hard do you think that empty would have chambered?

    I really don't know what to say on this one, because as a reloader, I have know exactly what SAAMI specs are...

    Maybe confusing to you, but if you want a reason to dwell on I'd have to pick where D Arms said they chamber them tight and they loosen up right away. You know that if the back of the bolt lugs having a finish on them and then after so so many rounds they are shiny showing where they wore in.....that wear in...how many hundred thousandths difference was there?

    The wear is not something you want to focus on with your argument...

    Well damn it. I had a nice post all typed up and accidentally closed out the browser....so I'm not going to retype, I'm just going to say I don't play that credential game as there are many ignoramuses outs there that when you give it to them it means nothing to them along with any college education you have because they know better. I know and worked with many well name people in the industry. I'm just telling you that there AR manufacturers that use a "certain kind" of headspace gauge in ASSEMBLING their AR's. So we'll just have to agree to disagree if you're not liking that one.

    And just stop. Insinuating that clandestine's creds are worthless is a serious slap in the face, not only to him, but to all of us that he has taken the time to inspect/work on our personal firearms.

    Just because you "know and worked with many well name people in the industry" doesn't mean anything to further your argument. It is like saying that I know people that work in the computer field that are well known and respected, but when questions on the companies they work for or verifiable information, I keep spouting vague information, without actually answering the questions posed to me.

    clandestine is a guy that knows his stuff, shares the knowledge, and is one heck of a good instructor. He has fixed many firearms, without actually seeing them, based off of what somebody has posted. I have attended his classes and I have more knowledge than I know what to do with.

    Chill out hoss and get the lay of the land. Don't call somebody out the way you did that lives and breathes firearms and has more experience than a lot of people on the forum. Take some time and learn from him. You might see things differently.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,029
    Yer gonna hafta wait til July 4th fer the drink. It should be juuuust about ready by then. ;)
     

    starmetal

    Member
    Apr 5, 2017
    97
    And this will not end well.



    Raise hairs? You are jumping in water with one link of chain more than you can swim with.



    I really don't know what to say on this one, because as a reloader, I have know exactly what SAAMI specs are...



    The wear is not something you want to focus on with your argument...



    And just stop. Insinuating that clandestine's creds are worthless is a serious slap in the face, not only to him, but to all of us that he has taken the time to inspect/work on our personal firearms.

    Just because you "know and worked with many well name people in the industry" doesn't mean anything to further your argument. It is like saying that I know people that work in the computer field that are well known and respected, but when questions on the companies they work for or verifiable information, I keep spouting vague information, without actually answering the questions posed to me.

    clandestine is a guy that knows his stuff, shares the knowledge, and is one heck of a good instructor. He has fixed many firearms, without actually seeing them, based off of what somebody has posted. I have attended his classes and I have more knowledge than I know what to do with.

    Chill out hoss and get the lay of the land. Don't call somebody out the way you did that lives and breathes firearms and has more experience than a lot of people on the forum. Take some time and learn from him. You might see things differently.

    Yeah good advice. I certainly jumped in the wrong way. I also never meant any of it to insinuate that I was insulting clandestine. The man certainly knows a lot more then all of the amateur plug and play build your own AR guys that abound everywhere. More then likely he and I would hit it just fine in person and I hope that I can start anew with him. How about it clandestine?

    So with that said I apologize to all I have offended.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    24,000
    Political refugee in WV
    Yeah good advice. I certainly jumped in the wrong way. I also never meant any of it to insinuate that I was insulting clandestine. The man certainly knows a lot more then all of the amateur plug and play build your own AR guys that abound everywhere. More then likely he and I would hit it just fine in person and I hope that I can start anew with him. How about it clandestine?

    So with that said I apologize to all I have offended.

    Look guy, it happens eventually to everybody. Lord knows I stepped wrong on here back in the day. I paid the price and since then, I have become an established member of the community, like many others on here, including clandestine. It takes work to get to that point. I thought I was hot shit and knew a lot back then, and looking back 4 years ago, I realize I didn't know as much as I thought I did. To make matters worse, I pissed off clandestine in a big way back then, but I made my apology, we moved on, and I am honored to say he is a good friend of mine after that incident occurred. A lot of people jump on the offender when it comes to clandestine, because of who he is as a person and everything he has done for people. The man has a lot of friends in a lot of random places, because of who he is and what he has done. He also has a lot of respect from the membership.

    The takeaway is that there are a lot of wannabes in the firearms world, and there are those that know their stuff. The problem is trying to figure out the chaff from the wheat and that comes from talking to them and questioning them as to why something is the case. Clandestine is one of the few that I have seen that makes it apparent that he knows his stuff, without having to bring up his creds.

    As for the bolded part in your post:
    On MDS, you may wish to be careful throwing that around. A lot of the people that build AR's on here or offer to help others were taught how to do it properly by clandestine. He taught me everything I know about the AR and I still learn more from him every day he posts on MDS. I'm not kissing his a$$ or trying to suck up because I need free help, I'm speaking the truth. He is an incredible resource and I'm happy that he is here and all I ever have to do is ask him a question, knowing I'll get the right answer to fix or improve something that I own. Just don't as him to help you with a Hi-Point or a 40 cal. :innocent0

    In time you will run into him out on the street or if you take a SOTAR class. I'm not trying to promote his business, but if you think you know the AR, take his classes and you will see that you might know less than you realized.

    I can't speak for him accepting your apology, but he did forgive me for my actions when I apologized. You'll have an answer from him one way or another.

    BTW, where are you located?
     

    DoormanTNT

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 17, 2012
    1,844
    Glen Burnie
    Yeah good advice. I certainly jumped in the wrong way. I also never meant any of it to insinuate that I was insulting clandestine. The man certainly knows a lot more then all of the amateur plug and play build your own AR guys that abound everywhere. More then likely he and I would hit it just fine in person and I hope that I can start anew with him. How about it clandestine?

    So with that said I apologize to all I have offended.

    Very stand up thing to do.
    I had my doubts how long you may last around here without an intro to Norton.

    As far as Clandestine, he has singlehandedly changed how we think of and what we know about the AR platform. And for good reason....he does truly LIVE it. Scroll thru some of his post. VERY knowledgeable and quick to give real world experiences. You may very well have the same knowledge, just came about it prematurely. Chad is trusted from past history of knowledge......and he won't boast about it....he doesn't need to. Will give solid advice, take it or not is up to us.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    24,000
    Political refugee in WV
    Yer gonna hafta wait til July 4th fer the drink. It should be juuuust about ready by then. ;)

    burns-excellent.gif
     

    TheBert

    The Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 10, 2013
    7,731
    Gaithersburg, Maryland
    No shit there I was...sitting in an a AR15 build class with three other guys at their tables and a young former Marine, all members here, and Chad as the Instructor. One of the first things we did with our box of parts was strip the bolt of extractor and ejector. Then we used the three head-space gauges on our bolts and barrel's. I had an M16 bolt and 5.56 stamped barrel. I had to raise my hand because my bolt and barrel, from the same manufacturer, were a no-go on the .223. I got to watch Chad as he instructed us in how to lap a bolt to a barrel and performed the lapping of the bolt to the barrel. He stressed how important it is to perform a head-space test and once the bolt to barrel lapping was completed and it passed the .223 go-no-go he advised me to shoot several hundred rounds of .223 before shooting any 5.56. The amazing thing was that it didn't take much time when lapping the bolt to the barrel to mate the bolt to the barrel, as Chad had said it is a delicate operation. There were a couple of other problems with the box of parts I showed up with and they were resolved with Chad's sage advice and enthusiastic attitude. When chad was showing me how to perform another operation I saw in his eyes and in his facial expression the joy that he had when his knowledge proved true and enabled me to perform the assembly operation with almost zero effort.

    I am working on assembling the tools needed to build another AR15 build. When I have completed build I will attend one of Chad's cheaper AR15 armorers courses to get my build gauged, under his watchful eye, and hopefully I will have remembered everything he taught me in the build class and my rifle will pass all gauging with flying colors. And, if it doesn't I will have another opportunity to learn from Chad and build upon my personal AR15 skills.
     

    starmetal

    Member
    Apr 5, 2017
    97
    Look guy, it happens eventually to everybody. Lord knows I stepped wrong on here back in the day. I paid the price and since then, I have become an established member of the community, like many others on here, including clandestine. It takes work to get to that point. I thought I was hot shit and knew a lot back then, and looking back 4 years ago, I realize I didn't know as much as I thought I did. To make matters worse, I pissed off clandestine in a big way back then, but I made my apology, we moved on, and I am honored to say he is a good friend of mine after that incident occurred. A lot of people jump on the offender when it comes to clandestine, because of who he is as a person and everything he has done for people. The man has a lot of friends in a lot of random places, because of who he is and what he has done. He also has a lot of respect from the membership.

    The takeaway is that there are a lot of wannabes in the firearms world, and there are those that know their stuff. The problem is trying to figure out the chaff from the wheat and that comes from talking to them and questioning them as to why something is the case. Clandestine is one of the few that I have seen that makes it apparent that he knows his stuff, without having to bring up his creds.

    As for the bolded part in your post:
    On MDS, you may wish to be careful throwing that around. A lot of the people that build AR's on here or offer to help others were taught how to do it properly by clandestine. He taught me everything I know about the AR and I still learn more from him every day he posts on MDS. I'm not kissing his a$$ or trying to suck up because I need free help, I'm speaking the truth. He is an incredible resource and I'm happy that he is here and all I ever have to do is ask him a question, knowing I'll get the right answer to fix or improve something that I own. Just don't as him to help you with a Hi-Point or a 40 cal. :innocent0

    In time you will run into him out on the street or if you take a SOTAR class. I'm not trying to promote his business, but if you think you know the AR, take his classes and you will see that you might know less than you realized.

    I can't speak for him accepting your apology, but he did forgive me for my actions when I apologized. You'll have an answer from him one way or another.

    BTW, where are you located?

    I'm located in Tennessee. I live in the mountains literally and surrounded by the Cherokee National Forest. Beautiful place. If you saw the scene in the movie The Last Of The Mahicans where the Hurons were escaping with the white woman they kidnapped and she threw herself off a cliff rather then be with them...well that's what it looks like where I live. In fact that scene was shot in Chimney Rock, NC which isn't too far from me.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,032
    Elkton, MD
    Yeah good advice. I certainly jumped in the wrong way. I also never meant any of it to insinuate that I was insulting clandestine. The man certainly knows a lot more then all of the amateur plug and play build your own AR guys that abound everywhere. More then likely he and I would hit it just fine in person and I hope that I can start anew with him. How about it clandestine?

    So with that said I apologize to all I have offended.

    Apology accepted. Hope you make yourself at home here on MDS.

    Chad
     

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