CZ 27: commercial or Nazi?

Bob A · Aug 2, 2018

Just rec'd what I had hoped was a commercial CZ 27, and examined it for markings. This is what I found:

Top rib of slide; BOHMISCHE WAFFENFABRIK A.G. IN PRAG 2234XX
Left side of slide; Pistole Modell 27 Kal 7,65
Rt side of slide blank.
No serial # on frame
Frame is parkerised, slide is blued. Finish on slide is not polished, but not as crude as some I've seen.
No serial # on barrel. Barrel has WaA on underside, no number following. Barrel has eagle over swastika in a circle.

My assumption is that this is not a commercial pistol. Eagle over N would have been the proof I'd have expected.

Finding info on WWII German proofs is not simple on google, or I wouldn't have bothered youall.

FWIW, bottom of magazine is stamped P Mod 27

Aside from all the above, the pistol seems to be in great shape. One-piece grip has small scratches on bottom of rt panel toward the front of the pistol, else fine. Crown of barrel has tiny pitting from11 o'clock to 5 o'clock, which does not appear to extend to the rifling. Barrel lands/grooves appear fine. No corrosion on outside of barrel. Apart from a bit of powder residue around the breech block, the thing appears almost unfired.

Since I'm not enamored of Nazi artifacts, I'd like to know if this is a military firearm, or something available to the common volk.

I'm rather surprised by the general absence of markings. Any info appreciated. Thanks in advance.

BigCity · Aug 2, 2018

If you're not enamored with WW2 pistols, I will take it off your hands....

BTW, this thread is worthless without pictures

2112rws · Aug 2, 2018

Try
http://www.tague.at/pistolen/en_index.htm?/pistolen/pages/en_beretta1935.htm

Bob A · Aug 2, 2018

So it appears that it's the "dual-tone" variation, but the various acceptance marks in the description are missing. I'm not sure what that might indicate.

Also I haven't yet found anything about the eagle/swastika mark. I haven't seen it before, though I haven't examined many WWII pistols beyond checking for the familiar Waffenamt marks.

KH195 · Aug 2, 2018

Sounds like German military to me. Serial number falls almost about right in the middle of German occupation numbering. Right side of frame, barrel, and top of slide should be waffenamt WaA76 marked, and barrel correctly has the eagle/swastika firing test proof as you indicated. Probably a weak stamp on your barrel and the "76" didn't show (I've seen this on several before). Wartime commercial CZ-27s would not have waffenamts and would have Czech 'lion' markings on barrel/frame or German commercial importer markings like AKAH or GECO. P.Mod.27 marked mag is correct for an occupation gun.

Edit: I see you didn't mention a waffenamt on the frame? That would make it a little more interesting and I'd like to see pics if waffenamt is absent on frame/slide.

somd_mustangs · Aug 2, 2018

I would concur that it's military.

The WaA76 on the right side of the frame is often very light and hard to see esp on the park'd guns.
The grips usually have the front corner(s) chipped off so if you have good solid grips that's a huge plus.

for a nice overview of the variants:
http://www.p38guns.com/CZ27.htm

here's one close to yours:
http://www.p38guns.com/CZ27Militaryfinish.htm

note that there is no S/N on the frame, there's a range where this occurred for some reason.
Normally it would be on the right front of frame.

Bob A · Aug 3, 2018

somd_mustangs said:
The WaA76 on the right side of the frame is often very light and hard to see esp on the park'd guns.

here's one close to yours:
http://www.p38guns.com/CZ27Militaryfinish.htm

Spot on, for both observations.

Examining the right side of the frame, a tiny spot of discoloration that I took for a finish blemish, proved on examination with a 10X jeweler's loupe, to be WaA76. It's interesting to note that both the waffenamt on the frame and the swastika proof on the barrel were too faint, too small or both to be clearly made out without magnification.

Second, the linked pistol "close to" mine is nearly identical.

Looks like it'll have to go. I wonder, are the commercial examples less sought after than the military ones?

somd_mustangs · Aug 3, 2018

The war-era commercial vz.27 is a lot more rare. very few made.
But not necessarily a corresponding rise in value as collectors usually want the military-marked guns... and not many people realize how rare they are.
There are also police-issued that are less common than military and typically bring more $$.

Out of curiosity, why does it have to go?

Bob A · Aug 3, 2018

somd_mustangs said:
The war-era commercial vz.27 is a lot more rare. very few made.
But not necessarily a corresponding rise in value as collectors usually want the military-marked guns... and not many people realize how rare they are.
There are also police-issued that are less common than military and typically bring more $$.

Out of curiosity, why does it have to go?

I decided many years ago that I didn't want any Nazi firearms in my collection. I make exceptions for German firearms of the period that were not used by the military. It's a harder call to determine if a commercial pistol was used by Brownshirt thugs etc, but they don't carry the Nazi taint for me.

I am aware that many folks disagree with my stance; that leaves more Nazi artifacts for them, if they want them.

It's the same sort of "standing on principles" that makes people here refuse to vote for Hogan, or that makes me unwilling to get an HQL. Arguments can legitimately be made for either side
but the final answer is merely based on an emotional aversion to Nazis, their artifacts, and their actions. (Or to the MD GA, who are not that far from Nazism in their beliefs, but far inferior in their execution, thankfully.)

If I may sidetrack a little, I'll mention an incident that occurred in the early 1970s. My wife was working as a RN in a psych unit, and was kicked in the base of her spine by a belligerent patient. I was of course furious. She told me that the guy was just really effed up; he had been a prisoner of the Nazis in WWII. So evil perpetrated before 1945 was still echoing down the corridors of time to inflict damage on the innocent, thirty years later.

That's sort of why it has to go. If someone wants it (and the evidence is out there that many someones do) they're welcome to purchase it. I just don't want it in my collection.

For that matter, anyone reading this who has a nice clean commercial CZ27 (or commercial Sauer 38h) who would like to trade, let me know.

I recently turned down a pristine Mauser HSC because of one of those tiny Nazi markings. (That should have reminded me of the difficulty of seeing these marks with the unaided eye, to say nothing of their turning up in the typical GB photo array. My bad due diligence.) Instead, I'm getting a nice French postwar Parkerised HSC; sort of a thumb in the Nazi's eye there.

somd_mustangs · Aug 3, 2018

Understood, and a fair point.
Commercial sales to "regular citizens" were very restricted, so most commercial guns wound up as personal sidearms for officers, factory guards, Gestapo, SS/SD, etc. anyway.

The Post-war French Mausers (Hsc, K98, P38 etc) haven't been given their due until fairly recently.
Now a French P.38, even with the Interarms import mark, brings around what a war-era P38 will bring.
As an aside there are a lot of interesting variations in the French P.38's just in that relatively small block of ~35k pistols.
The earlier French-assembled guns often have the initial WaA135 inspection stamp, and sometimes an E/S firing proof so be vigilant

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Aug 3, 2018

Nothing Nazi enters my home. I won't judge those who choose to collect such items...just that I won't.

Bob A · Aug 7, 2018

somd_mustangs said:
The earlier French-assembled guns often have the initial WaA135 inspection stamp, and sometimes an E/S firing proof so be vigilant

French HSC came today. Only marks are the French ones.
For those interested, S/N is in the 9639xx range; pistol is parkerised. (Had some antique grease inside; operating the takedown button was tough. Once I got it stripped and flushed with solvent, all was well.)

I thought there was a problem with the safety; if the hammer was cocked an the pistol switched to "safe" a trigger pull would release the hammer. But apparently the safety moves the pin out of hammer contact, so it never extends past the breech face. Really interesting design.

CZ 27: commercial or Nazi?

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