SBR Usefulness

jstolz · Jun 12, 2020

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. With the arm braces that have exploded in popularity over the past couple years, are SBRs still worth the hassle?

I get it in the terms of an AK in Maryland. I just don't know if it is really more useful for the hassle. Love to hear everyone's thoughts.

rouchna · Jun 12, 2020

The problem with braces is that the ATF can change its mind at any time about its uses. Although the process of getting a an NFA stamp is a pain in the ass, I at least don't have to worry about a new opinion letter making me a criminal.
Having said that, I think the new braces are about as close as you'll get to a stock but I worry that eventually, they will become regulated. Just my opinion.

davsco · Jun 12, 2020

some games, such as uspsa, don't allow braced guns.

teratos · Jun 12, 2020

I f’ing hate arm braces. So much nicer with a real stock. I’ve thought about doing a cheapie 7.5” barrel AR pistol for emergencies, though.

SkiPatrolDude · Jun 12, 2020

My opinion on AR pistols is that they are fine, in fact a better alternative for many people. Also, if you have a MD CCW, you can conceal carry your loaded AR pistol in your vehicle or in a "go bag", not so an NFA item.

But here's the thing...I really only recommend AR pistols to people that fundamentally understand guns and the federal and state laws. As the above poster mentioned, the ATF can subjectively rule that because of whatever your set up or intent, that it may constitute a redesign of the firearm into an SBR. From the cases that I have seen, the ATF focuses strongly on intent rather than the physical characteristics of the brace or firearm alone. If they can prove reasonably that any modification (including addition or use of a brace) resulted from the intent to shoulder the weapon like a rifle, then that alone can constitute an illegal redesign into an SBR.

Defensible in court? Probably...but who want's to take that ride?

All of that said, so long as you are not prone to self incrimination (openly discussing with the ATF or law enforcement that you have added a brace specifically to shoulder), follow OAL laws with regard to a VFG, and do not permanently modify the brace as to make it function more optimally in a shouldered position, I think you are g2g.

Also, there's some BS about the ATF using 13.5 LOP as a general guideline for determining if the brace can be classified as a stock. Mine exceeded 13.5 with a LAW folder, so I added a few LOP limiters that SB tactical sells. Which reminds me of another perk...you can use a folder on a pistol, but MD SBR OAL laws will most likely prevent you from being able to add any kind of folding stock.

I've gone back and forth between keeping my DD M4V7p a pistol or SBR'ing it. So far decided to keep it as a pistol so I can more easily travel with it.

Just my 0.02

SkiPatrolDude · Jun 12, 2020

teratos said:
I f’ing hate arm braces. So much nicer with a real stock. I’ve thought about doing a cheapie 7.5” barrel AR pistol for emergencies, though.

The SB Tactical SB4 is prob the next best thing. It's pretty impressive, if you haven't yet checked them out.

Not to be confused with the SBM4...don't waste your time with that.

ken792 · Jun 12, 2020

You can pull a stock into your shoulder harder than with the soft braces, especially if shouldering them high near the toe

erwos · Jun 12, 2020

rouchna said:
The problem with braces is that the ATF can change its mind at any time about its uses. Although the process of getting a an NFA stamp is a pain in the ass, I at least don't have to worry about a new opinion letter making me a criminal.
Having said that, I think the new braces are about as close as you'll get to a stock but I worry that eventually, they will become regulated. Just my opinion.

This is what I think, too. Worth noting also is that many of the more recent braces were never submitted for approval, so the ATF could legitimately go "this is one is too close!" and make an example out of you in an otherwise legitimate SD shoot.

There's no denying that filing 5320.20s to go out of state is a PITA and requires some forethought. I don't think I'd want to go SBR-only for that reason, but most people have multiple uppers anyways. I'd also note that, generally speaking, dedicated competition rifles aren't SBRs due to velocity and handling needs (PCCs sometimes being an exception).

calicojack · Jun 12, 2020

rouchna said:
The problem with braces is that the ATF can change its mind at any time about its uses. Although the process of getting a an NFA stamp is a pain in the ass, I at least don't have to worry about a new opinion letter making me a criminal.
Having said that, I think the new braces are about as close as you'll get to a stock but I worry that eventually, they will become regulated. Just my opinion.

I agree. What sucks in MD is the 29" OAL. So I can't SBR by AR9 unless I am able to find an 11 or 12" barrel which is uncommon for 9mm

rouchna · Jun 12, 2020

calicojack said:
I agree. What sucks in MD is the 29" OAL. So I can't SBR by AR9 unless I am able to find an 11 or 12" barrel which is uncommon for 9mm

That is true. I didn’t even think of that :tdown:

JTH20 · Jun 12, 2020

calicojack said:
I agree. What sucks in MD is the 29" OAL. So I can't SBR by AR9 unless I am able to find an 11 or 12" barrel which is uncommon for 9mm

The 29" OAL kills SBR's in MD. I'd like to do a CX4 SBR, but it's just over 29" with a 16" barrel.

erwos · Jun 12, 2020

Depends on your stock, too. Magpul ACS will get you an extra inch or so. Where you get burned is trying to PDW builds, which are basically verboten at this point.

DutchV · Jun 12, 2020

The SBA3 brace can be improved a bit by using a Splitfix.

http://lcequipped.com/sba3-splitfix/

woodline · Jun 12, 2020

DutchV said:
The SBA3 brace can be improved a bit by using a Splitfix.

http://lcequipped.com/sba3-splitfix/

The splitfix is indeed really good for those of us cursed with large forearms.

lazarus · Jun 12, 2020

teratos said:
I f’ing hate arm braces. So much nicer with a real stock. I’ve thought about doing a cheapie 7.5” barrel AR pistol for emergencies, though.

The problem there is it really just has to be suppressed. A 7.5” .223 is going to blast out your hearing by the time a mag is done and in a hallway probably after just a shot or two. And disorienting were heck in the dark.

IMHO 10.5” is really the minimum other than a fun gun, or suppressed.

IMHO even a 7.5” .300BO sucks really bad unless you custom load ammo and use some pistol powder or something.

lazarus · Jun 12, 2020

JTH20 said:
The 29" OAL kills SBR's in MD. I'd like to do a CX4 SBR, but it's just over 29" with a 16" barrel.

I want a proper Vz61. That’s what, like 19” with the stock unfolded or something like that.

Maybe I can pin and weld a suppressor to get it over the OAL?

Occam · Jun 12, 2020

lazarus said:
IMHO even a 7.5” .300BO sucks really bad unless you custom load ammo and use some pistol powder or something.

At which point, just go with a 9mm PCC like a Scorpion. In that "hallway" situation, it's going to be just as useful and a lot more usable (and reliably suppressable on the same gun that will also work unsuppressed without a lot of fuss). Why does living in The Free State seem kinda not that way? We should be The Ironically Nicknamed State.

teratos · Jun 12, 2020

Occam said:
At which point, just go with a 9mm PCC like a Scorpion. In that "hallway" situation, it's going to be just as useful and a lot more usable (and reliably suppressable on the same gun that will also work unsuppressed without a lot of fuss). Why does living in The Free State seem kinda not that way? We should be The Ironically Nicknamed State.

Ah, probably should have said PCC. Perhaps 10mm

jstolz · Jun 12, 2020

I had a feeling there were more to think about than just sbr is more of a pita. Atf does like to change their mind a lot which is always worrying.

BenSpelledABC · Jun 12, 2020

jstolz said:
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. With the arm braces that have exploded in popularity over the past couple years, are SBRs still worth the hassle?

I get it in the terms of an AK in Maryland. I just don't know if it is really more useful for the hassle. Love to hear everyone's thoughts.

To me yes it's worth it. I'm 6'7" and the LOP of a "pistol" isn't enough for me. I don't leave this glorious state of Maryland so I don't need to do paperwork if/when i leave the state.

To ME, yes it's worth it. Your millage may differ.

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