Looking for mid to entry level UNIX folk

N3YMY · Aug 1, 2017

My company is in search of mid level to entry level UNIX folk.

We have been search since April and have only found 5 candidates.

Most of which don't understand the features of apache, let alone spell SSL.

Our HR department is executing this search (need I say more?).

What kind of suggestions could I give them to have better success finding candidates?

In the same time period, we hired 3 new windows SAs.

Suggestions....?

whistlersmother · Aug 1, 2017

Convert to Windows? Seriously, the O/S and application are only as good as the company's ability to support them.

You don't really say which "UNIX" - Solaris, Linux (what distro?), Tru64, *BSD, HP/UX, ...

You might want to broaden out to AWS administrators - the same skills for your local boxen are the same skills as cloud boxen.
I specially mention AWS because most of AWS AMI's are Linux based.

N3YMY · Aug 1, 2017

Ideally we are looking for a UNIX generalist, but someone who can speak RHEL (or derived) is plenty fine.

(Hell, anyone who can speak any UNIX is good!)

We are mostly a CentOS (with some OEL) shop, but like I said, any UNIX competency is good.

We are currently running 6, but in 2018 we are either upgrading to the next release or another UNIX OS.

Canidates look great on paper, they phone screen great. In person though, not so much.

When you have them talk to 5 folk over their visit and all 5 agree they can't meet what we need, that's just no bueno

We've hired folk in the past; this time it seems especially hard to fine anyone who can spell UNiX...

holesonpaper · Aug 1, 2017

Being an IT professional myself (Java Architect, Linux Admin (SuSE/Red Hat), DB2 DBA), and having the same struggles - this is my take. Unix admins, whether Solaris, Linux (distro), zLinux, AIX - are generally a specialized skill that generally either you have (senior) or you don't. Locating an entry to mid-level resource really means your locating someone relatively new - so why not mend yourself. My suggestion is that you contact someone in the Computer Science department of your local university and inquire there. You might not fill the need right away - but when I'm looking for junior potential (and not the commonplace skills - like Windows SME's), I start there. Now the flip side of the coin, as soon as you find someone and polish their skills - keep ahead of the curve otherwise good luck at retaining...

whistlersmother · Aug 1, 2017

You might also look at the "devops" scene.

Although, I'm more dev than ops, I've done both out of necessity - small company = lots of hats...

You may find SA's that call themselves "devops" to try to keep up with market or get into development. Not sure if that fits your requirements.

Nanook · Aug 1, 2017

What kind of other requirements does the job have? Clearance required? Local/remote/off-site? While I have done some Linux/Solaris/etc/etc in the past, I may know some younger folks who might be looking...

PM is fine if you don't want to throw it out there.

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

whistlersmother said:
Although, I'm more dev than ops, I've done both out of necessity - small company = lots of hats...

This where a lot of the problem seems to be.

We seem to get a lot of candidates that have worked for big corps, they know what they do and know it well, but it often is only a tiny slice what what apache can do (vhosting), or app deployments to tomcat.

In other words, they don't know how to request a SSL cert or install tomcat because another group did that where they used to work (!!)

It's almost like the information they picked up was wholly comparimentalized and therefore they don't have the necessary depth to install apache and configure it end to end.

Yet they have not worked in cleared environments; they mostly come from private sector.

We can teach them that, but theres already so much to teach new hires about their working environment. It's like starting in a hole and having to climb up to the surface before they are ready to learn what they need to operate in our environment, and our environment is not complicated.

I guess I'm surprised it's become so challenging to find folk who have the basic knowledge building blocks to begin with.

We had a excellent mid level candidate a while back.

However, he knew nothing of networking and apache, etc. his last environment was a large installation with hard wired terminals (!!). His knowledge was solid, but because we would need to teach him the ABCs of networking from the ground up, we passed.

He was 50ish. I would have thought all the large hard wired environments would have been gone in the mid 1990s.

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

Nanook said:
What kind of other requirements does the job have? Clearance required? Local/remote/off-site? While I have done some Linux/Solaris/etc/etc in the past, I may know some younger folks who might be looking...

PM is fine if you don't want to throw it out there.

The biggest thing clearance wise is SF-85P, (position of public trust). Local in Silver Spring, MD or Durham, NC.

(hmmm, guess this could be sold as way to escape the PRMD :thumbsup:

)

If successfully hired (we do "try before you buy" via contracts), we have flexible work schedule and some work from home.

I have a prior post here talking in great detail of the kinds of things to do...

GeorgeSSR · Aug 2, 2017

N3YMY said:
This where a lot of the problem seems to be.

We seem to get a lot of candidates that have worked for big corps, they know what they do and know it well, but it often is only a tiny slice what what apache can do (vhosting), or app deployments to tomcat.

In other words, they don't know how to request a SSL cert or install tomcat because another group did that where they used to work (!!)

It's almost like the information they picked up was wholly comparimentalized and therefore they don't have the necessary depth to install apache and configure it end to end.

Yet they have not worked in cleared environments; they mostly come from private sector.

We can teach them that, but theres already so much to teach new hires about their working environment. It's like starting in a hole and having to climb up to the surface before they are ready to learn what they need to operate in our environment, and our environment is not complicated.

I guess I'm surprised it's become so challenging to find folk who have the basic knowledge building blocks to begin with.

We had a excellent mid level candidate a while back.

However, he knew nothing of networking and apache, etc. his last environment was a large installation with hard wired terminals (!!). His knowledge was solid, but because we would need to teach him the ABCs of networking from the ground up, we passed.

He was 50ish. I would have thought all the large hard wired environments would have been gone in the mid 1990s.

Not sure I'd consider full-stack experience entry to mid level. Mid level to my organization is exactly what you describe in the first bolded part: somebody who has some experience with the software in question, but not enough to do a full implementation without help. If I need someone to do a full implementation of a system I'm probably looking for a senior engineer who can do all the big picture stuff and dole out tasks to the junior level engineer who can do a lot with basic instructions. Entry level to us means they can follow a script (like a validation plan), junior/mid means they understand the components they're assigned and install, compose, and decompose as necessary, and senior is the architect/admin. Obviously skill are inherited from the ground up and any upper level engineer can fulfill a lower level's tasks as necessary.

A decade ago I interviewed for an entry level systems engineering job: the company wanted somebody with ten years of experience in a tool that had been out for ~two years. Ignoring the fact you can't have that much cumulative experience in a new tool, the demand of that much experience in an entry level position was silly. It was a product of the economy tanking and having so many skilled unemployed people that companies were able to hire experts and entry level positions at a fraction of their previous cost.

whistlersmother · Aug 2, 2017

I hate big companies because the environment causes "lock-in" to a certain position / skill set with very little opportunity to broaden out. When I first went to a small company, I had to ask how to properly shutdown the VMS system.

I would pass on the job that is 6 month contract to hire (aka "try before buy"). You may not know my skill set / work ethic, but I do and unless I'm starving on the street, to me, the "try before buy" is actually an insult. But I guess I'm just old school.

I once heard some personal performance "guru" state that "if you're not practicing your profession as part of your personal/hobby time, then you won't grow."

Have any of the Windows SA's offhandedly remark about tinkering or even administrating Linux/Unix at home? Lots of concepts are the same (networking, SSL, rights, etc.) so maybe there's an entry there with amiddle-of-the-road Windows SA?

Inigoes · Aug 2, 2017

N3YMY said:
The biggest thing clearance wise is SF-85P, (position of public trust). Local in Silver Spring, MD or Durham, NC.

(hmmm, guess this could be sold as way to escape the PRMD )

If successfully hired (we do "try before you buy" via contracts), we have flexible work schedule and some work from home.

I have a prior post here talking in great detail of the kinds of things to do...

Cha-Ching

You want command line knowledge UNIX SA, Oracle related knowledge, and inside the beltway: that is not cheap. What is the Salary range?

traveller · Aug 2, 2017

You may be able to find some Unix guys at the local VFW

axshon · Aug 2, 2017

GeorgeSSR said:
Not sure I'd consider full-stack experience entry to mid level.

Yep, this.

Candidate might be entry-to-mid level for your company but not for the market. Those skills command a premium in this area since so much .gov work requires it.

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

GeorgeSSR said:
Not sure I'd consider full-stack experience entry to mid level. Mid level to my organization is exactly what you describe in the first bolded part: somebody who has some experience with the software in question, but not enough to do a full implementation without help.

I don't consider knowing how to install apache via yum/rpm and get a vhost defined with SSL a mid level skill; I also don't consider that "full stack".

I'm not looking for them to know how to integrate apache with php, tomcat, etc. Also, While we use oracle, it is not even a requirement for this position. The same with any DB technology.

Is it really considered mid level to have more knowledge about apache other "it serves web pages"? Perhaps my expectations are skewed and this is why we cannot get the candidates we search for...?

If I need someone to do a full implementation of a system I'm probably looking for a senior engineer who can do all the big picture stuff and dole out tasks to the junior level engineer who can do a lot with basic instructions.

Interesting.

For us, that's a mid level SA; senior SAs do architecture and "engineering work ups" (i.e. Set the standards and working practices) for new technology.

Mid level is expected to integrate anything we have WPDs for. If they have a question, get with the senior.

Entry is expected to handle day to day tickets. Things like DNS RR changes, apache config mods, and standing new sites on existing installations.

Entry level to us means they can follow a script (like a validation plan), junior/mid means they understand the components they're assigned and install, compose, and decompose as necessary, and senior is the architect/admin. Obviously skill are inherited from the ground up and any upper level engineer can fulfill a lower level's tasks as necessary.

Curious how big your employer is did the number of techs to support them..?

A decade ago I interviewed for an entry level systems engineering job: the company wanted somebody with ten years of experience in a tool that had been out for ~two years. Ignoring the fact you can't have that much cumulative experience in a new tool, the demand of that much experience in an entry level position was silly. It was a product of the economy tanking and having so many skilled unemployed people that companies were able to hire experts and entry level positions at a fraction of their previous cost.

Been there, seen that.

It never seems to fail when new technology becomes "hot". :rolleyes:

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

Inigoes said:
Cha-Ching

You want command line knowledge UNIX SA, Oracle related knowledge, and inside the beltway: that is not cheap. What is the Salary range?

This position doesn't require oracle.

We use it, but we will teach it.

Amazingly, HR and management will not discuss salary.

I have no idea :shrug:

hdatontodo · Aug 2, 2017

I might be the kind of Unix person you're bumping into. I'm more in a customer service related engineering role, so I periodically add accounts, virtual interfaces / IPs, Apache r/w rules, read weblogic logs, etc, but that is like 20% of my time, even though I've been involved with Unix since 1995.

I spend other time chasing network issues, checking Oracle exports, increasing Oracle tablespace sizes, etc.

I would think a lower level Tier 1 kind of support person who does Unix all day would do just Unix tasks.

I can write shell scripts etc, but I don't add disks, filesystems, and such.

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

whistlersmother said:
I hate big companies because the environment causes "lock-in" to a certain position / skill set with very little opportunity to broaden out. When I first went to a small company, I had to ask how to properly shutdown the VMS system.

This is what we seem to be running into :envy:

I would pass on the job that is 6 month contract to hire (aka "try before buy"). You may not know my skill set / work ethic, but I do and unless I'm starving on the street, to me, the "try before buy" is actually an insult. But I guess I'm just old school.

Since 2000 or so, the "gig economy" has become the norm. Every position I've had since that time has had "try before you buy" and sometimes, "buy" isn't even offered.

Employers have wanted the ultimate flexible workforce and in many ways, it has come home to roost. Lack of employee loyalty for one. Of course now employees just plan on quitting. However, this is a bit off topic for this discussion.

I once heard some personal performance "guru" state that "if you're not practicing your profession as part of your personal/hobby time, then you won't grow."

This describes me. I love the problem solving aspect of my job and I invested gobs of my personal time when I was younger. It's become tougher now that my daughter has arrived.

Now there are more important things like archery and teaching her how to ride a dirt bike :thumbsup:

Have any of the Windows SA's offhandedly remark about tinkering or even administrating Linux/Unix at home? Lots of concepts are the same (networking, SSL, rights, etc.) so maybe there's an entry there with amiddle-of-the-road Windows SA?

The only problem is it is a one way street.

The windows group has more or less pilfered one of the team members from the UNIX team for windows tasking.

Hence why we search to get another exclusive UNIX resource.

We are willing to school and train whoever we get, we just want to ensure they have the basic working knowledge.

Perhaps the expectations are too much as per the prior post...?

N3YMY · Aug 2, 2017

hdatontodo said:
I might be the kind of Unix person you're bumping into.

If we had canidates of your caliber, there would be an offer tendered.

We would teach you disks and file systems no problem (and much more!)...

senetor24 · Aug 12, 2017

Work with an IT recruiting firm, we have filled many similar roles. Let me know if we can help you out.

sailskidrive · Aug 15, 2017

One of the issues I've noticed lately among my clients/customers is that sysadmin work along and basic networking are quickly becoming the blue color jobs of the IT industry. You may need to spice up the job description a little and mention Devops (yawn), Hadoop, Spark, Splunk, etc - something that sounds like it is going to allow them to further develop a skillset.

Have you tried reaching out to the UMBC and the local community colleges' Job Placement Centers?

Looking for mid to entry level UNIX folk

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