Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

armed ferret · Nov 5, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Yeah Thermal would be awesome! However it might not be great for Non-living targets... after all most of our targets are the same temp as the surroundings. However Predator Vision is pretty cool!

Hand warmers. Cheap targets for sighting in a thermal unit.

In 5-10 years they will be down to a few hundred bucks...

No. They won't. Actually, price has gone up (albeit just a little, but it's still the opposite of down) the last couple years. That said, a good thermal unit doesn't cost 10 grand. The ATN Thor 320 and Armasight Zeus with 336 core can be had in the 5-6 grand range, and they're great.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 5, 2013

armed ferret said:
Hand warmers. Cheap targets for sighting in a thermal unit.

No. They won't. Actually, price has gone up (albeit just a little, but it's still the opposite of down) the last couple years. That said, a good thermal unit doesn't cost 10 grand. The ATN Thor 320 and Armasight Zeus with 336 core can be had in the 5-6 grand range, and they're great.

Yeah, I mean you could make "hot" targets but it does present a new problem to the shoot.

I have yet to see any technology that does not get cheaper as time goes on. With the Military sucking up all these type of units, its no wonder the price remains high. However the wars seem to be winding down and so the demand will likely drop. I don't see anything in them that will keep the value up as demand falls and technology improves. If I am missing something please explain why it will not follow the NV example?

armed ferret · Nov 5, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Yeah, I mean you could make "hot" targets but it does present a new problem to the shoot.

I have yet to see any technology that does not get cheaper as time goes on. With the Military sucking up all these type of units, its no wonder the price remains high. However the wars seem to be winding down and so the demand will likely drop. I don't see anything in them that will keep the value up as demand falls and technology improves. If I am missing something please explain why it will not follow the NV example?

with the exception of slightly higher resolution cores, there's really no "new" technology to thermal. detection types remain the same, and even the "lower-end" stuff has multiple designations (color, black-hot, white-hot, etc) as standard.

unless someone comes out with a *MAJOR* breakthrough technologically in the next year or two, don't expect prices to drop nearly as much as NV has, if at all.

the D760 series of gen 3 NV scopes have only come down about 2%-3% or thereabouts the last 3 years. That's not much of a decrease. Most NV has gone up lately, because gen 3 has been the top of the heap. The way NV works, there likely won't be much innovation on the consumer market for a long time to come, so stuff will likely just increase from here on out with inflation.

smdub · Nov 5, 2013

armed ferret said:
unless someone comes out with a *MAJOR* breakthrough technologically in the next year or two, don't expect prices to drop nearly as much as NV has, if at all.

Why "*MAJOR* breakthrough"? I really see it as more of a low-volume issue. Microbolometers don't appear high tech compared to most other stuff today (Im talking about micromaching and wafer tech.) We have a FLIR 320x240 handheld unit at the office we paid $10k++ for ~5yrs ago. Similar unit is now ~1/2 that. I know a guy putting one of the tiny lower res units (160x120?) onto a quad-copter to do automated search/rescue. When he showed it off last month he said it cost ~$2k. You can get Fluke units now at home depot. *IF* there is a large market opportunity for them somewhere then the process will be ramped up to large scale and prices will drop.

A good example Im familiar with is evacuated tube solar thermal collector (solar hot water). Low tech but was expensive for AGES to make w/ the vacuum and glassblowing required. The chinese wanted mass rollout, automated the process, and within the last 10yrs prices probably dropped close to TWO orders of magnitude. Similar happened to PV solar. Was >$20/W when I started. Now <$1/W once really big business got behind it and innovated/automated at a higher scale. All driven by market need.

Micromachining semiconductors was expensive until the market for cheap accelerometers for airbags came about. ADI (and others) scaled up and prices plummeted. Now machomachining is 'old hat' for many other applications.

If FLIR ever makes it into cars HUDs in a big way (Mercedes has used it?? I remember seeing ads for it in some brands car - detecting deer or cyclists at night), *THERES* the HUGE volume app to drive manufacturing.

dist1646 · Nov 5, 2013

The neighbors are not going to like night shoots at the AGC!

armed ferret · Nov 5, 2013

that's why you do it starting in late fall when it's dark around 6:30-7 pm.

Jaybeez · Nov 5, 2013

I thought the big hangup keeping thermal prices high was the cost to manufacture the lenses?

armed ferret · Nov 5, 2013

Jaybeez said:
I thought the big hangup keeping thermal prices high was the cost to manufacture the lenses?

one of many things, but that's one of the bigger ones.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 6, 2013

dist1646 said:
The neighbors are not going to like night shoots at the AGC!

Yes thats always something to consider. My idea was to hold these in the fall/winter months, like right now where its dark around 6:30 and run them to 9 on Wednesday nights. This happens to run along with Trap. So you already have loud center fire shoots happening, a few more guns firing should not even really be noticed. There is also a Tuesday night Pistol league shooting, so maybe look at that day too if need be.

I was not talking about running a 2am shoot if thats what you mean. This is all just kind of an idea at this point. Trust me by the time it gets past the AGC trustees, it will be well vetted.

At this point, I am trying to see how we would even be able to run one of these shoots and if there is the interest to make it worth doing. Frankly I am not even sure if I would enjoy it having never done it before.

armed ferret said:
one of many things, but that's one of the bigger ones.

What is so expensive about making the lens? Seems like that would not be the issue given the years of cheap scopes. Can you explain more?

armed ferret · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Yes thats always something to consider. My idea was to hold these in the fall/winter months, like right now where its dark around 6:30 and run them to 9 on Wednesday nights. This happens to run along with Trap. So you already have loud center fire shoots happening, a few more guns firing should not even really be noticed. There is also a Tuesday night Pistol league shooting, so maybe look at that day too if need be.

I was not talking about running a 2am shoot if thats what you mean. This is all just kind of an idea at this point. Trust me by the time it gets past the AGC trustees, it will be well vetted.

At this point, I am trying to see how we would even be able to run one of these shoots and if there is the interest to make it worth doing. Frankly I am not even sure if I would enjoy it having never done it before.

What is so expensive about making the lens? Seems like that would not be the issue given the years of cheap scopes. Can you explain more?

Germanium. Google it.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 6, 2013

armed ferret said:
Germanium. Google it.

Hmm... interesting! It does sound expensive. However when I see some Germanium lenses on Edmond optics.... they are only $300+/- each retail. Granted the optics may need to be larger or whatever but does not seem like a huge expense.

smdub · Nov 6, 2013

The lower res camera I saw had about a 20mm (diam) lens. Our higger-res FLIR ex300 is 35mm (diam). They are indeed germanium. Current price for zone refined Ge (to what level I don't know) is ~$1900/kg. Almost 3x the price of silver (around $700/kg now.) The large removable FLIR lens *WITH* its metal housing, focus ring, electronics, etc is ~120g. That would be $228 if it was entirely made from Ge. FLIR gets >$1k for one as a replacement part.

http://www.metal-pages.com/metalprices/germanium/

Inigoes · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
At this point, I am trying to see how we would even be able to run one of these shoots and if there is the interest to make it worth doing. Frankly I am not even sure if I would enjoy it having never done it before.

There are some night shoot threads around here somewhere.

1) make sure everything thing is completely wet. Dry range conditions will ruin a shoot quickly.

2) Winter is good. Can start shooting before 6pm and go till 9pm without disturbing neighbors.

3) Chem lights, lots of'em! Mark the right and left boundaries (White/Yellow)so the naked eye can discern them. Mark the target(s) (green). Mark the shooters (red). Mark the ROs (blue). Cost was around $200 the last night shoot.

4) Notify every agency and their mother individually that you are holding a night shoot. Not all agencies communicate with the others.

5) Have a disciplined RO cadre. A RO for every 2-3 shooters, to assist with anytype of malfunction, and to keep a good head count. Thigs get easily confused at night.

FutureSeabee would be proud of you

armed ferret · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Hmm... interesting! It does sound expensive. However when I see some Germanium lenses on Edmond optics.... they are only $300+/- each retail. Granted the optics may need to be larger or whatever but does not seem like a huge expense.

sounds like you should be able to make your own thermal for way less than 5k then. be sure and post pics?

IMBLITZVT · Nov 6, 2013

smdub said:
The lower res camera I saw had about a 20mm (diam) lens. Our higger-res FLIR ex300 is 35mm (diam). They are indeed germanium. Current price for zone refined Ge (to what level I don't know) is ~$1900/kg. Almost 3x the price of silver (around $700/kg now.) The large removable FLIR lens *WITH* its metal housing, focus ring, electronics, etc is ~120g. That would be $228 if it was entirely made from Ge. FLIR gets >$1k for one as a replacement part.

Thanks for running the math! I thought about doing it but sure did not feel like doing it. $1K for it sounds right as a retail price for a part with $228 material cost. So I guess we aren't going to see a few hundred $ scope but maybe a few thousand Thermal Scope.

Inigoes said:
There are some night shoot threads around here somewhere.

1) make sure everything thing is completely wet. Dry range conditions will ruin a shoot quickly.

2) Winter is good. Can start shooting before 6pm and go till 9pm without disturbing neighbors.

3) Chem lights, lots of'em! Mark the right and left boundaries (White/Yellow)so the naked eye can discern them. Mark the target(s) (green). Mark the shooters (red). Mark the ROs (blue). Cost was around $200 the last night shoot.

4) Notify every agency and their mother individually that you are holding a night shoot. Not all agencies communicate with the others.

5) Have a disciplined RO cadre. A RO for every 2-3 shooters, to assist with anytype of malfunction, and to keep a good head count. Thigs get easily confused at night.

FutureSeabee would be proud of you

1. Can you explain? Why does it being wet matter?

3. Good idea! I like that idea a lot and would certainly do something like that. Plus the kids will love them when I we are done! I don't know about marking the targets... kind of defeats the point doesn't it? If you can see it without NV...

4. Don't think that will be an issue. We have lights at our range and shoot after its dark every week. So they will others will not know that lights are off for once...

5. Good point. I am expecting we would limit it to experienced shoots anyway.

Great points to think about! I appreciate it!

armed ferret said:
sounds like you should be able to make your own thermal for way less than 5k then. be sure and post pics?

No need to get like that. The point you made was good but not great. You are right, given the costs of the lens, we are not going to see $200 Thermal scopes ever given the scrap for the lens is worth about that. However the cost is not so high that we could not still see considerable reduction in cost from the $5K+ that they are now. I don't pretend to know a lot on the subject and I have already learned a lot from this thread. I am really just trying to understand. You may very well be right that they will not come down below the $5K level. However the lens thing I don't think will be the major reason why.

Inigoes · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
1. Can you explain? Why does it being wet matter?

Night shoots = Tracers. Tracers start fires easily. Wet conditions literally dampen the chances of a range fire.

If you are going to shoot at night without tracers, that will be extremely boring, unless you get creative with reactive targets

I stated mark the targets with chem lights, not illuminate them. It allows shooters and observers see the rounds going where they are supposed to.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 6, 2013

Inigoes said:
Night shoots = Tracers. Tracers start fires easily. Wet conditions literally dampen the chances of a range fire.

If you are going to shoot at night without tracers, that will be extremely boring, unless you get creative with reactive targets

I stated mark the targets with chem lights, not illuminate them. It allows shooters and observers see the rounds going where they are supposed to.

Yeah... tracers are just not going to happen I don't think. So yes that was a concern that it would be boring! Target selection will be important to keep it fun.

I was figuring all would have NV Scopes or NVGs and so should be able to see the impacts in the Berm?

Inigoes · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
I was figuring all would have NV Scopes or NVGs and so should be able to see the impacts in the Berm?

Nope, the older generations of NV will barely detect it, if it does all.

Inigoes · Nov 6, 2013

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention.

The biggest rule: No one should go down range after darkness falls.

This is where disciplined 100% accountibility comes in. Knowing if it does happen, all shooters have returned safely. ROs issuing a false report, can have a deadly consequence.

armed ferret · Nov 6, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
You are right, given the costs of the lens, we are not going to see $200 Thermal scopes ever given the scrap for the lens is worth about that. However the cost is not so high that we could not still see considerable reduction in cost from the $5K+ that they are now. I don't pretend to know a lot on the subject and I have already learned a lot from this thread. I am really just trying to understand. You may very well be right that they will not come down below the $5K level. However the lens thing I don't think will be the major reason why.

you're forgetting all the R&D that goes into each different sight. You can't just slap various parts together and it'll work, no questions asked. Odds are for a $5k weapon sight, easily 2,000+ man-hours were spent on R&D and testing (although that's probably a good bit lower than the actual number).

Of course there's also the biggest factor of all.....supply and demand.

If they continue selling their product at the price they're asking, they'll continue asking that price. If sales drop, odds are prices will do the same accordingly.

Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

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