Need help in how to sell a rifle...

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  • mdoffroad

    Looking to Learn
    Aug 26, 2011
    1,606
    Abingdon, MD
    I just had a question asked about a rifle I'm selling.... the lower was bought post ban and paperwork done on it. Then it was built as a heavy barrel rifle.... does this still require and FFL as paperwork was done originally? or is it now a face to face cash and carry after a copy of the drivers license is taken?

    Md resident here, AR lower, bought post ban, now heavy barrel and a complete rifle.
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Only you would know its transform to hbar rifle.

    The "paper trail" will be in your name on msp list since it's 77r originally.

    If it were me.. I'd use ffl. So you have "paper trail".. (Not just bill of sale).

    Ymmv
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Interesting.

    The old "once regulated,... always regulated" point.

    Far as I understand HBAR is HBAR, regardless of when, how, by whom, with what. 80% totally legally to sell assembled into an HBAR correct? Whats the difference if this guy has numbers stamped on his?
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Interesting.

    The old "once regulated,... always regulated" point.

    Far as I understand HBAR is HBAR, regardless of when, how, by whom, with what. 80% totally legally to sell assembled into an HBAR correct? Whats the difference if this guy has numbers stamped on his?
    Is there "paper trail' (msp or ffl)with 80%?? ;)

    Haven't build anything from 80% so I have no answer for selling one that's made to a rifle.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    I would ASSUME (IANAL), the person finishing the 80% is the manufacturer of the firearm. If its finished into a pistol and later sold, it would have to be sold via 77R and HQL for the buyer. I would further ASSUME an 80% built into an HBAR could be sold face-to-face as an HBAR - the buyer would forever have to keep it as HBAR within the confines of Maryland.

    Have these questions, including 77R lowers, been asked of the MSP / AG's office?

    As for a lower transferred on 77R, it would be hell of a note to learn down the road that it had to be transferred via 77R even though its in HBAR (and can only be in HBAR in Maryland) configuration.

    Edit: Can Maryland law get any more confusing than this?
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Agreed on the trail. But, I've owned probably close to 100 guns, mostly long, I have around 20 so now, there's a ton out there that went to fully legal owners, but I bet the MSP still thinks they're mine...

    I keep a bill of sale, but.......
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Agreed on the trail. But, I've owned probably close to 100 guns, mostly long, I have around 20 so now, there's a ton out there that went to fully legal owners, but I bet the MSP still thinks they're mine...

    I keep a bill of sale, but.......
    Knock on wood.. It's not used in any criminal activity.

    Bet you be the first to be called when and if the sn is tracked back to you.

    Now the question , living in MD,.. You know you are guilty until proven innocent. Would you like to deal with such a hassle/legal ?

    Just my opinion .. Not a lawyer.. You know the deal.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Bet you be the first to be called when and if the sn is tracked back to you.

    Now the question , living in MD,.. You know you are guilty until proven innocent. Would you like to deal with such a hassle/legal ?
    Bet I've acted 100% within the law selling both FTF and out of State via receiving FFL. Issue is,.... there's no mechanism for the SN/Ownership being REMOVED in the State of MD.

    Therefore they ("they") either assume I have a pretty large collection,.... or I've legally sold/transferred some over the years. Either way I don't lose a minutes sleep. ;)

    Guns bought in DE/PA then brought into MD fully leglly without MD documents????

    Ewwwwwweeeeee, how are we all not dead already!
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,342
    Right, if you bought 100 handguns at a gun shop in MD, then sold them all to a PA gun shop.

    Someone gawking at the screen with your name and it shows 100 transfers when you done sold them years ago, for instance.

    People are looking into it too far. It's a transfer, it happened in a moment of time and recorded, there is nothing that says it needs to be deleted because the transfer of the gun was a real event in time.

    There would probably never be a way to ever un(?)transfer them, they just look up the most recent transfer to find the current owner (if still in MD) is my guess.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    There would probably never be a way to ever un(?)transfer them, they just look up the most recent transfer to find the current owner (if still in MD) is my guess.
    Maybe oversimplified there a tad.

    He's talking a long gun, there is no "current owner", only the one on the 77R (in the case or a "regulated" firearm) regarless of how long ago that may have been or what the law was at that point.
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Bet I've acted 100% within the law selling both FTF and out of State via receiving FFL. Issue is,.... there's no mechanism for the SN/Ownership being REMOVED in the State of MD.

    Therefore they ("they") either assume I have a pretty large collection,.... or I've legally sold/transferred some over the years. Either way I don't lose a minutes sleep. ;)

    Guns bought in DE/PA then brought into MD fully leglly without MD documents????

    Ewwwwwweeeeee, how are we all not dead already!
    :lol:
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Right, if you bought 100 handguns at a gun shop in MD, then sold them all to a PA gun shop.

    Someone gawking at the screen with your name and it shows 100 transfers when you done sold them years ago, for instance.

    People are looking into it too far. It's a transfer, it happened in a moment of time and recorded, there is nothing that says it needs to be deleted because the transfer of the gun was a real event in time.

    There would probably never be a way to ever un(?)transfer them, they just look up the most recent transfer to find the current owner (if still in MD) is my guess.

    Worse, you buy 100 handguns in MD. You sell them via a 77R in MD. They get resold, 100 times for each of them

    Guess what. YOU NAME IS STILL LISTED WITH THAT SERIAL NUMBER. As is each of the 100 other buyers.
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Worse, you buy 100 handguns in MD. You sell them via a 77R in MD. They get resold, 100 times for each of them

    Guess what. YOU NAME IS STILL LISTED WITH THAT SERIAL NUMBER. As is each of the 100 other buyers.
    With this in mind.. At least you have the 77r copy (msp paper trail) that the handgun was transfered..

    Msp 77r is better trail than bill of sale .. IMHO.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,342
    Worse, you buy 100 handguns in MD. You sell them via a 77R in MD. They get resold, 100 times for each of them

    Guess what. YOU NAME IS STILL LISTED WITH THAT SERIAL NUMBER. As is each of the 100 other buyers.


    Yeah, that what I was trying to say. It's a record of transfer, your name and everyone else who owns it in this state will be associated with the same handgun.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I would say it's a cash and carry deal. Wouldn't it be the same thing when a dealer buys his lowers, and then builds the rifle into an HBAR configuration. He is able to sell that rifle C&C, no waiting period. As long as your bill of sales lists the serial number of the lower and it's configuration as an HBAR, I can't see why you would have to go through an FFL. But I guess there will be an FFL that will soon give you their advice. I'd listen to the FFL.

    Good Luck!
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    I would say it's a cash and carry deal. Wouldn't it be the same thing when a dealer buys his lowers, and then builds the rifle into an HBAR configuration. He is able to sell that rifle C&C, no waiting period. As long as your bill of sales lists the serial number of the lower and it's configuration as an HBAR, I can't see why you would have to go through an FFL. But I guess there will be an FFL that will soon give you their advice. I'd listen to the FFL.

    Good Luck!

    Believe only ffl 07 can build and sell.(?)

    Ffl has to follow federal and state regs.

    Nics check for c&c.. (Fed paper trail).
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,181
    I would say it's a cash and carry deal. Wouldn't it be the same thing when a dealer buys his lowers, and then builds the rifle into an HBAR configuration. He is able to sell that rifle C&C, no waiting period. As long as your bill of sales lists the serial number of the lower and it's configuration as an HBAR, I can't see why you would have to go through an FFL. But I guess there will be an FFL that will soon give you their advice. I'd listen to the FFL.

    Good Luck!
    :thumbsup:
    Believe only ffl 07 can build and sell.(?)

    Ffl has to follow federal and state regs.

    Nics check for c&c.. (Fed paper trail).

    Build? For our purposes that means assemble.

    When buying the lower prior to the build... AND, post PSA 2013... It would have been unlawful to build the lower into a pre-ban configuration.

    (IF IT WAS BUILT AS A PISTOL ... IT STILL REQUIRES FFL/MDSP TRANSFER)

    IF ... It was built as a post ban HBAR. Post ban HBARs are C&C as long as the seller reasonably believes the buyer is not a prohibited person.

    A simple BofS with the Md. resident buyer's name and address from a Md. DL should suffice to absolve the seller of any post sale liability. Create the BofS, have it signed and keep it with your records as a paper trail to follow if it ever becomes a relevant issue. (a "cellphone pic of the DL" is not a bad idea to have for your records)

    If there is any doubt or questions about the condition of the buyers status as to "prohibited" or "not prohibited"... Simply DO NOT sell to that person.

    There's no sense in making things more difficult than the law requires.
     

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