HB1002 SB0906 Financials Should Fail This Bill

Silent Partner · Mar 21, 2016

HB1002 SB0906

There is no way this Bill should pass based on the financial statements alone.
This is the worst I’ve ever read. Have these people never heard of 6 Sigma or ISO 9004 ?
If I were to propose a computer system based on a self funding analysis I’d be laughed out of the business meeting in short order AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

They make no accounting for the number of structures “Gun Free Zone” signs will be posted to.
How many signs, at what cost ?
Are the signs to be affixed to metal posts or masonry?
How many posts, at what cost ?
If affixed to masonry how many drill bits and masonry anchors ?
How many man hours and at what hourly rate to install signs, & posts ?
In the case of co-location with non University property there clearly is a need to define that which is non University property with either paint or tape.
Again at what cost for material and installation?

There is no accounting for legal defense on the State's part as there will be litigation.
In the case of co-location with non University property a legal CCW holder may find himself arrested due to the University property was not clearly defined.
Does this constitute entrapment ?
If so the University would have to defend itself in court.
There is no accounting for the State’s attorney time or hourly rate ?
It’s not a wash because they’re already employed by the State, because they’re not doing the job they would have normally done. Example: PG, Montgomery County Public Defender’s office submitted a Bill this session for inclusion in the 2017 Budget for 2.5 million to outsource work to the private sector because they say they’re overloaded.
Should the CCW holder file suit against the property owner, that owner would probably file suit against the University. The State may have to purchase these properties.
How many properties and at what cost to the State ?

They make no accounting of the number of out of state students which may leave the University due to this law as they feel it makes them feel unsafe and they have no legal recourse if they are attacked on University property.
How many out of state students attend State Universities ?
How much revenue does out of state students bring into the State?
How much revenue loss could the State potentially see ? Present ? Future ?

I Support Miller & Bush for Involuntary Retirement in 2018 .

Mr H · Mar 21, 2016

Great points, all, and these need to be made known the full GA, as you present them, as I'm sure 90% of them will never know the difference and just blindly 'lemming' along.

Also, more of us should be advocating to toss out Miller and Busch earlier than 2018!!

Of course, we'd likely end up with Zirkin and Dumais... but I'd rather have rookies who know what we can do, than dinosaurs who just don't care.

EL1227 · Mar 21, 2016

And, NEITHER has bipartisan support ...

LegiScan calls SB906 a Partisan Bill (Democrat 21-0)

Sen. Richard Madaleno [D] Sen. Joanne Benson [D] Sen. Joan Conway [D] Sen. Ulysses Currie [D]
Sen. Brian Feldman [D] Sen. William Ferguson [D] Sen. Guy Guzzone [D] Sen. Cheryl Kagan [D]
Sen. Delores Kelley [D] Sen. Nancy King [D] Sen. Susan Lee [D] Sen. Roger Manno [D]
Sen. Nathaniel McFadden [D] Sen. Shirley Nathan-Pulliam [D] Sen. Douglas Peters [D] Sen. Paul Pinsky [D]
Sen. Catherine Pugh [D] Sen. Victor Ramirez [D] Sen. Jamin Raskin [D] Sen. James Rosapepe [D]

LegiScan calls HB1002 a Partisan Bill (Democrat 39-0)

Del. Ben Barnes [D] Del. Curtis Anderson [D] Del. Vanessa Atterbeary [D] Del. Benjamin Brooks [D]
Del. Michael Busch [D] Del. Luke Clippinger [D] Del. Bonnie Cullison [D] Del. Dereck Davis [D]
Del. Eric Ebersole [D] Del. Diana Fennell [D] Del. Barbara Frush [D] Del. Ana Gutierrez [D]
Del. Anne Healey [D] Del. Shelly Hettleman [D] Del. Terri Hill [D] Del. Sheila Hixson [D]
Del. Marvin Holmes [D] Del. Carolyn Howard [D] Del. Michael Jackson [D] Del. Jay Jalisi [D]
Del. Sally Jameson [D] Del. Adrienne Jones [D] Del. Anne Kaiser [D] Del. Marc Korman [D]
Del. Carol Krimm [D] Del. Stephen Lafferty [D] Del. Clarence Lam [D] Del. Brooke Lierman [D]
Del. Eric Luedtke [D] Del. Aruna Miller [D] Del. David Moon [D] Del. Dan Morhaim [D]
Del. Andrew Platt [D] Del. Barbara Robinson [D] Del. Carlos Sanchez [D] Del. Will Smith [D]
Del. Dana Stein [D] Del. Kriselda Valderrama [D] Del. Jeff Waldstreicher [D]

Dumais waddles away quickly to avoid comment ...

BeoBill · Mar 21, 2016

Mr H said:
Great points, all, and these need to be made known the full GA, as you present them, as I'm sure 90% of them will never know the difference and just blindly 'lemming' along.

Also, more of us should be advocating to toss out Miller and Busch earlier than 2018!!

Of course, we'd likely end up with Zirkin and Dumais... but I'd rather have rookies who know what we can do, than dinosaurs who just don't care.

I'll happily second both of your points. What are our available Miller Busch Ejection devices?

One good thing we've done even so far is that we sent them a message that we know who they are and where they live. And we got positive air time/column inches for our side. And best of all: We got under their skin!

I wonder if our showing didn't account to some extent to the trifling showing the Demanding Moms made this year? Time will tell. But we need to keep the pressure going, IMO.

dblas · Mar 21, 2016

Silent Partner said:
HB1002 SB0906

There is no way this Bill should pass based on the financial statements alone.
This is the worst I’ve ever read. Have these people never heard of 6 Sigma or ISO 9004 ?
If I were to propose a computer system based on a self funding analysis I’d be laughed out of the business meeting in short order AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

They make no accounting for the number of structures “Gun Free Zone” signs will be posted to.
How many signs, at what cost ?
Are the signs to be affixed to metal posts or masonry?
How many posts, at what cost ?
If affixed to masonry how many drill bits and masonry anchors ?
How many man hours and at what hourly rate to install signs, & posts ?
In the case of co-location with non University property there clearly is a need to define that which is non University property with either paint or tape.
Again at what cost for material and installation?

There is no accounting for legal defense on the State's part as there will be litigation.
In the case of co-location with non University property a legal CCW holder may find himself arrested due to the University property was not clearly defined.
Does this constitute entrapment ?
If so the University would have to defend itself in court.
There is no accounting for the State’s attorney time or hourly rate ?
It’s not a wash because they’re already employed by the State, because they’re not doing the job they would have normally done. Example: PG, Montgomery County Public Defender’s office submitted a Bill this session for inclusion in the 2017 Budget for 2.5 million to outsource work to the private sector because they say they’re overloaded.
Should the CCW holder file suit against the property owner, that owner would probably file suit against the University. The State may have to purchase these properties.
How many properties and at what cost to the State ?

They make no accounting of the number of out of state students which may leave the University due to this law as they feel it makes them feel unsafe and they have no legal recourse if they are attacked on University property.
How many out of state students attend State Universities ?
How much revenue does out of state students bring into the State?
How much revenue loss could the State potentially see ? Present ? Future ?

I Support Miller & Bush for Involuntary Retirement in 2018 .

All great points, but one thing needs to be made clear. The Fiscal and Policy Note is strictly written on the original bill and is not updated after that, based on amendments added or taken away from the original bill. Signage was added as an amendment to the original bill and thus, not updated in the Fiscal and Policy note. And they never include potential for litigation in any fiscal and policy note.

dblas · Mar 21, 2016

Silent Partner said:
HB1002 SB0906

There is no way this Bill should pass based on the financial statements alone.
This is the worst I’ve ever read. Have these people never heard of 6 Sigma or ISO 9004 ?
If I were to propose a computer system based on a self funding analysis I’d be laughed out of the business meeting in short order AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

They make no accounting for the number of structures “Gun Free Zone” signs will be posted to.
How many signs, at what cost ?
Are the signs to be affixed to metal posts or masonry?
How many posts, at what cost ?
If affixed to masonry how many drill bits and masonry anchors ?
How many man hours and at what hourly rate to install signs, & posts ?
In the case of co-location with non University property there clearly is a need to define that which is non University property with either paint or tape.
Again at what cost for material and installation?

There is no accounting for legal defense on the State's part as there will be litigation.
In the case of co-location with non University property a legal CCW holder may find himself arrested due to the University property was not clearly defined.
Does this constitute entrapment ?
If so the University would have to defend itself in court.
There is no accounting for the State’s attorney time or hourly rate ?
It’s not a wash because they’re already employed by the State, because they’re not doing the job they would have normally done. Example: PG, Montgomery County Public Defender’s office submitted a Bill this session for inclusion in the 2017 Budget for 2.5 million to outsource work to the private sector because they say they’re overloaded.
Should the CCW holder file suit against the property owner, that owner would probably file suit against the University. The State may have to purchase these properties.
How many properties and at what cost to the State ?

They make no accounting of the number of out of state students which may leave the University due to this law as they feel it makes them feel unsafe and they have no legal recourse if they are attacked on University property.
How many out of state students attend State Universities ?
How much revenue does out of state students bring into the State?
How much revenue loss could the State potentially see ? Present ? Future ?

I Support Miller & Bush for Involuntary Retirement in 2018 .

As an aside to my comments in the above post, you need to write this up and send it to everyone on the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee.

Matlack · Mar 21, 2016

Mr H said:
Great points, all, and these need to be made known the full GA, as you present them, as I'm sure 90% of them will never know the difference and just blindly 'lemming' along.

Also, more of us should be advocating to toss out Miller and Busch earlier than 2018!!

Of course, we'd likely end up with Zirkin and Dumais... but I'd rather have rookies who know what we can do, than dinosaurs who just don't care.

Do you really think any of the D's care? Its all for the "greater good"(movie quote btw). The ends justify the means, no matter what.

Mr H · Mar 21, 2016

BeoBill said:
I'll happily second both of your points. What are our available Miller Busch Ejection devices?

One good thing we've done even so far is that we sent them a message that we know who they are and where they live. And we got positive air time/column inches for our side. And best of all: We got under their skin!

I wonder if our showing didn't account to some extent to the trifling showing the Demanding Moms made this year? Time will tell. But we need to keep the pressure going, IMO.

Facts and shaming.

This is where the collective research capability of MDS comes into play. I've long considered this bunch the internet's greatest research team, and if any folks can dig up and package the needed material, it's MDS.

We've long known there have to be dirty dealings, but FTMP we've been like the rest of MD, and either accepted it or grumbled among friends.

A perfect example is the DDA, and all the messy dealings by Jon Cardin. We found enough to create serious issues for many, but it stopped short due to a lack of media availability. We now have several YouTube and Facebook mavens to spread the word that we didn't have then.

As for shaming? Yeah, I know... they have to have a conscience, first. But, this is their source of power. We just need folks willing to play kryptonite distributors.

Silent Partner · Mar 21, 2016

Mr H said:
Great points, all, and these need to be made known the full GA, as you present them, as I'm sure 90% of them will never know the difference and just blindly 'lemming' along.

Also, more of us should be advocating to toss out Miller and Busch earlier than 2018!!

Of course, we'd likely end up with Zirkin and Dumais... but I'd rather have rookies who know what we can do, than dinosaurs who just don't care.

Thanks Mr H. Sent to the full JPR 18:57

If we take out the 2 biggest Bullies the rest of the crew might act more civil for fear of their next. I would like nothing better then to take out Brochin, Dumais, Raskin,& Zirkin but I think that is spreading us to thinly. Unless Bush & Miller commit an illegal act (doubtful) they're safe until 2018.

Silent Partner · Mar 21, 2016

dblas said:
As an aside to my comments in the above post, you need to write this up and send it to everyone on the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee.

Thanks Dan, as stated above sent to full JPR @ 18:57 after sending email to
Delegate McMillian & Brave about HB 1341 - State Wetlands License - Temporary Installation of a Boat Canopy – Exemption. The reply I received was it had already passed the House and was sent to Senate probably
Education, Health and Environmental Matters (EHEA) Committee

Silent Partner · Mar 21, 2016

dblas said:
And they never include potential for litigation in any fiscal and policy note.

Why is that ? Isn't that a cost of doing business ? Why are the Maryland residents responsible for their lack of poor planning and foresight after the fact ?

How much of the 18 million school budget was siphoned off for legal defense of the HQL ?

Jim12 · Mar 21, 2016

Silent Partner said:
Why is that ? Isn't that a cost of doing business ? Why are the Maryland residents responsible for their lack of poor planning and foresight after the fact ?

How much of the 18 million school budget was siphoned off for legal defense of the HQL ?

HQL hasn't been litigated, yet. You may mean FSA2013's Modern Sporting Rifle and standard capacity (>10 round) magazine bans?

If large amounts of money are spent defending bone-headed laws in court, that is excellent fodder for political challengers come election time, and both they and we should make hay with it -- especially when those laws are unpopular and/or struck down by the courts as unconstitutional.

MD residents need to hold the politicians responsible for their excesses.

dblas · Mar 22, 2016

Silent Partner said:
Why is that ? Isn't that a cost of doing business ? Why are the Maryland residents responsible for their lack of poor planning and foresight after the fact ?

How much of the 18 million school budget was siphoned off for legal defense of the HQL ?

Because legislative services doesn't decide if a potential bill would be illegal or not, and budgeting for potential litigation would be doing just that.

MrNiceGuy · Mar 22, 2016

dblas said:
Because legislative services doesn't decide if a potential bill would be illegal or not, and budgeting for potential litigation would be doing just that.

Wouldn't legislative services be able to tell when a piece of legislation is particularly likely to spark lawsuits and budget for that? I understand you aren't creating their policy for what's included in the fiscal notes and I'm not asking you to answer for them; it just seems like they'd be providing a more honest accounting when looking at a bill that any reasonably well informed person can see will be fought hard in the courts (not just on matters relating to firearms). If you have a bill in front of you that requires public school students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the ACLU is going to file (and easily win) a lawsuit, so you may as well include those costs.

dblas · Mar 22, 2016

MrNiceGuy said:
Wouldn't legislative services be able to tell when a piece of legislation is particularly likely to spark lawsuits and budget for that? I understand you aren't creating their policy for what's included in the fiscal notes and I'm not asking you to answer for them; it just seems like they'd be providing a more honest accounting when looking at a bill that any reasonably well informed person can see will be fought hard in the courts (not just on matters relating to firearms). If you have a bill in front of you that requires public school students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the ACLU is going to file (and easily win) a lawsuit, so you may as well include those costs.

Most (not all) bills that might invite litigation, generally don't pass. Again, including a budget for litigation is akin to admitting that the bill is flawed, and violates some sort of law somewhere.

And how do you budget for litigation on a given bill? Do you know which law firm will bring the lawsuit, the amount of time for discovery and depositions? Who will be deposed and for how long? Will the state win the case or lose the case at the first stage, and then will they request an appeal to the next level if they have lost? Will the other side appeal to the next level if they lose?

Too many variables to even consider adding litigation into the finance and policy note.

Abacab · Mar 22, 2016

This bill historically died in the Senate committee. It seems stalled there at the moment. Zirkin signed on this time which indicated a high likelihood of passage. So far nothing going on.

Curious.

It should also tell you that Vallario wasn't fond of this bill. They sent it to appropriations rather than HJPC. I figure any gun bill would start there normally.

Rigging the game as usual.

Jim12 · Mar 22, 2016

There probably need to be signs -- lots and lots of signs. So many, in fact, that it might call unwanted attention to all the isolated and/or urban buildings and facilities that are covered by it that the public wouldn't know about, and to the ridiculous complexity and pervasiveness of MD's gun laws. It might also cost a fortune.

It might actually backfire.

dblas · Mar 22, 2016

Abacab said:
This bill historically died in the Senate committee. It seems stalled there at the moment. Zirkin signed on this time which indicated a high likelihood of passage. So far nothing going on.

Curious.

It should also tell you that Vallario wasn't fond of this bill. They sent it to appropriations rather than HJPC. I figure any gun bill would start there normally.

Rigging the game as usual.

That may change with a few shenanigans last night. Senator Gladden was replaced by Senator McFadden, since she has been out during recovery from MS.

The Senate President has been less than thrilled with the voting session activity (or lack there of) of JPR.

Abacab · Mar 23, 2016

Surely King Mike has enough power to turn the screws on Zirkin if he really wanted this or any other bill to pass? For the media, this stupid bill is the hallmark of the great Maryland gun grab of 2016.

dblas · Mar 23, 2016

Abacab said:
Surely King Mike has enough power to turn the screws on Zirkin if he really wanted this or any other bill to pass? For the media, this stupid bill is the hallmark of the great Maryland gun grab of 2016.

The problem was, without Gladden they had 10 members and Brochin has been a unpredictable to them, as he has been to us, in some cases resulting in a 5/5 tie on votes. Zirkin also, isn't the puppet that Frosh was.

HB1002 SB0906 Financials Should Fail This Bill

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