If you could buy a BCG??

omegared24 · Jun 5, 2019

Steve_Zissou said:
I think it'd probably help to go beyond saying that they're out of spec and digging deeper into why exactly that's bad and how it can end up negatively affecting the gun.

It's been explained many times on this forum why an out of spec AR is bad.

I think it lends to the platform that you can probably pick apart a rifle with gauges but it will still run fine. The issues show themselves when you really need it and it decides it doesn't want to cooperate.

I'm guilty of running a less than perfect AR but my "go to" has been checked and assembled by a pro that I trust. Not many people can say that.

jrumann59 · Jun 5, 2019

Steve_Zissou said:
I think it'd probably help to go beyond saying that they're out of spec and digging deeper into why exactly that's bad and how it can end up negatively affecting the gun.

Doubly-so if you start talking about what what specs truly matter and what specs you can fudge a bit on in the course of your build, particularly in relation to the intended use of the gun and what the user might be willing to sacrifice either in terms of longevity or reliability.

mainly tolerance stacking. We are talking measurements in the .001" range. Most cases the worst thing that can happen is the gun won't work or be inaccurate. But it is possible that lets say a Barrel and Bolt won't close on a GO headspace gage and you run it to the range and fire rounds, very possible you blow up your gun

clandestine · Jun 5, 2019

Steve_Zissou said:
I think it'd probably help to go beyond saying that they're out of spec and digging deeper into why exactly that's bad and how it can end up negatively affecting the gun.

Doubly-so if you start talking about what what specs truly matter and what specs you can fudge a bit on in the course of your build, particularly in relation to the intended use of the gun and what the user might be willing to sacrifice either in terms of longevity or reliability.

It causes a gassing issue. I have discussed it here on MDS and in this thread, just didn't show #'s. I'm not listing every bit of my work, especially since I try to steer people away from problems and the advice is ignored.

I help people here with free advice constantly here on MDS. I have Serviced over 10K AR's.

If you don't accept my advice, fine by me.

outrider58 · Jun 5, 2019

omegared24 said:
I'm no expert but it is pretty alarming how often parts fail when they are gauged. I believe Toolcraft only makes carriers. Who knows where the bolts come from. I'm happy to pay a professional to check things because the tools can be cost prohibitive and he'll have an eye for something I might miss. Thus my recent lower rebuild.

During my last visit to Chad, we checked both the Aero and PSA BCGs in an upper that I had purchased from him a while back so I knew it was good. The Aero worked perfectly. The PSA was a little tight but was still good (should wear in with use).

The important take away here is that manufacturers have let QC go to help cut costs. They've also started selling parts with different treatments/coatings to meet demands of the consumer. We need to make sure that we check parts so we minimize issues and don't have catastrophic failures. You, as well as others that are educated about the subject, get that. Others just listen to the interwebz experts and hope for the best.

Another term for out of spec?

clandestine said:
This is correct but I don't think people accept the advice.

How many classes of yours have I taken and or aided in? I don't recall you describing nitrited BCGs as junk. I could be wrong though...

omegared24 said:
That's unfortunate.

Steve_Zissou said:
I think it'd probably help to go beyond saying that they're out of spec and digging deeper into why exactly that's bad and how it can end up negatively affecting the gun.

Doubly-so if you start talking about what what specs truly matter and what specs you can fudge a bit on in the course of your build, particularly in relation to the intended use of the gun and what the user might be willing to sacrifice either in terms of longevity or reliability.

I didn't post in this thread professing to be an "expert". Only to suggest an alternative for the OP. Here is Toolcraft's official website. Interesting reading on how and why they mill in accordance to the particular coating or treatment the BC is to receive.

https://www.toolcraftinc.com/coatings/

Here is a little from Arm or Ally's website:

https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa

Please Note: Some dealers utilize a third party coating service to keep their costs down. If purchasing a Toolcraft bolt carrier group from one of these dealers, Toolcraft will void the coating warranty. All Toolcraft Bolt Carrier Groups sold by Arm or Ally include the manufacturers 100% no-questions-asked warranty.

Again, I'm not here for a pissing match. They are a giant waste of time.

YMMV

K-43 · Jun 5, 2019

Well, they didn't cover any of that in armorer's school. The Army instructor covered the fact that phosphate is a coating that wears and moving parts "wear in" until the Park is smooth - which happens pretty quickly. Of course, Uncle Sugar only gave us Parkerized BCG parts back in the day.
Any documentation to educate me better? i'd like to read some studies. This isn't an attack, I'd really like to read some newer documentation.

omegared24 · Jun 5, 2019

outrider58 said:
Another term for out of spec?

Again, I'm not here for a pissing match. They are a giant waste of time.

YMMV

I guess...I'm no expert but I'd venture to guess that it was within acceptable parameters...if deemed unsafe it would have been corrected.

I don't know why my comment warrants a roll eyes but I'll accept it as you didn't have anything to counter the fact that not taking good advice is a bad thing.

For someone not interested in a pissing match you sure did a good job of pissing everywhere.

ADR · Jun 5, 2019

omegared24 said:
It's been explained many times on this forum why an out of spec AR is bad.

I think it lends to the platform that you can probably pick apart a rifle with gauges but it will still run fine. The issues show themselves when you really need it and it decides it doesn't want to cooperate.

I'm guilty of running a less than perfect AR but my "go to" has been checked and assembled by a pro that I trust. Not many people can say that.

That's actually pretty accurate. My newest issued patrol rifle was assembled and checked by some guy I don't even know. Then again, the chance of me ever actually needing a full auto M4 are pretty slim. (I hope)

clandestine · Jun 5, 2019

outrider58 said:
Another term for out of spec?

How many classes of yours have I taken and or aided in? I don't recall you describing nitrited BCGs as junk. I could be wrong though...

I didn't post in this thread professing to be an "expert". Only to suggest an alternative for the OP. Here is Toolcraft's official website. Interesting reading on how and why they mill in accordance to the particular coating or treatment the BC is to receive.

https://www.toolcraftinc.com/coatings/

Here is a little from Arm or Ally's website:

https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa

Again, I'm not here for a pissing match. They are a giant waste of time.

YMMV

I may have forgotten to mention the issues with Nitride in the classes you have attended. I do forget to bring up things at times. I certainly mentioned it during the past few armorer's classes that I had to replace Nitride Carrier Keys, beyond that I can't recall. I constantly mention it when I suggest components for build classes and on other social media platforms.

I have been documenting Nitride components for a while now, same as NiB. The Manufacturers who push the Nitride are not always keeping proper tolerances. The tolerances that can affect proper cycling on the AR include:

Gas Key Bore
Carrier 3 Bore (Only 2 matter)
Bolt Tail
Gas Rings
Carrier to Gas Key seal
Gas Tube Flange
Gas Block to Barrel Fit
Gas Port and Alignment

If anyone does not like my advice check these videos.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAF6BAgHEAo&usg=AOvVaw3dsHiBZDmi4AuJ3h0Ghl5_

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAB6BAgHEAU&usg=AOvVaw1ulI9i4lCP7rk3dwYnb68C

The effect of loose tolerances don't have a significant effect on an over gassed rifle, but can be a total failure on a properly ported gun or low port pressure ammo.

clandestine · Jun 5, 2019

K-43 said:
Well, they didn't cover any of that in armorer's school. The Army instructor covered the fact that phosphate is a coating that wears and moving parts "wear in" until the Park is smooth - which happens pretty quickly. Of course, Uncle Sugar only gave us Parkerized BCG parts back in the day.
Any documentation to educate me better? i'd like to read some studies. This isn't an attack, I'd really like to read some newer documentation.

I go way beyond what most Armorers schools cover in regards to gauging. The gauging has to do with a balanced system.

Watch the video I posted above. They offer and alternative to ME, as to why the tolerances I mention matter.

for what it's worth many armorer's schools are sponsored by a particular farms manufacturer or 10 to isolate cheaper brands from their courses. So logic would dictate, what you Gauge, and see depends on the variety of components the person teaching the armorer's course has or will encounter. The variety of problems you see in the civilian world for the AR are much larger than something you would see on the DoD side. Again this affects the type of instruction you will encounter.

For example there is no such thing as a 5.56 go gauge for military armorer's since the mid-90s. military armorer's can get by with that because the bolts and barrels that use or very thoroughly checked before they are issued out as components. Not so much in the civilian world.

Yes there are acceptable ranges and some are acceptable when other areas compensate for the gas leakage.

jrumann59 · Jun 5, 2019

K-43 said:
Well, they didn't cover any of that in armorer's school. The Army instructor covered the fact that phosphate is a coating that wears and moving parts "wear in" until the Park is smooth - which happens pretty quickly. Of course, Uncle Sugar only gave us Parkerized BCG parts back in the day.
Any documentation to educate me better? i'd like to read some studies. This isn't an attack, I'd really like to read some newer documentation.

I was in the army, and while like society there are average and above average and below average. Standard military tries to keep things floating between average and above average. If the rifles I was issued as an MP were any indication many of those were in the most part peasant guns. If you pulled the trigger they went bang and they would hit a target and if you concentrated and laid off coffee 24 hrs before you could get a serviceable grouping. The one kept in my patrol Hummer had so much battle rattle that when we walked with them we sounded like an old school janitor coming down the hall with a keyring of 20 keys.

K-43 · Jun 5, 2019

Thank you. I will keep this in mind for next time.
i just thought nitride would clean easier just like chrome was all the rage 15 or 20 years ago. Live and learn.

jrumann59 · Jun 5, 2019

K-43 said:
Thank you. I will keep this in mind for next time.
i just thought nitride would clean easier just like chrome was all the rage 15 or 20 years ago. Live and learn.

The issue is really not the finish, its the QA. With all the gun grabbers calling for ban this and confiscate that etc. There are a lot of "suppliers" bringing things to market without doing their homework or trusting their distributors and that make these parts. Whether it be NiB, TiN, Nitride, chrome, or phosphate finished there is a lot of buyer horror stories. Then you have manufacturers making dubious cases like run our BCG with coating X and never lube your gun.

Do Not know your age but think Tuner Car world circa 1990-2000 the parts were expensive and then companies came out of the woodwork making this and claiming that and racing to the lowest price with no attention to detail. Parts were ill fitting, structurally unsound, or in some cases just complete junk.

right now we are in that spot in the gun community. Between Chinese junk at gun shows and on some websites to just some reputable manufacturers cutting corners to keep up with demand, to some people that just do not know.

K-43 · Jun 5, 2019

jrumann59 said:
I was in the army, and while like society there are average and above average and below average. Standard military tries to keep things floating between average and above average. If the rifles I was issued as an MP were any indication many of those were in the most part peasant guns. If you pulled the trigger they went bang and they would hit a target and if you concentrated and laid off coffee 24 hrs before you could get a serviceable grouping. The one kept in my patrol Hummer had so much battle rattle that when we walked with them we sounded like an old school janitor coming down the hall with a keyring of 20 keys.

The Armorer's job is to keep it safe and functional, not make a target rifle. The requirement is pretty low for accuracy anyway.
Yeah, I had one of those rattle traps in the Marine Corps. Still qualified Expert with it. Sweet Winchester barrel. But it wouldn't have put anyone in the top 99% at Camp Perry in XTC.

K-43 · Jun 5, 2019

jrumann59 said:
The issue is really not the finish, its the QA. With all the gun grabbers calling for ban this and confiscate that etc. There are a lot of "suppliers" bringing things to market without doing their homework or trusting their distributors and that make these parts. Whether it be NiB, TiN, Nitride, chrome, or phosphate finished there is a lot of buyer horror stories. Then you have manufacturers making dubious cases like run our BCG with coating X and never lube your gun....

Right. That is why I purchased a Toolworks BCG with the Toolworks reputation, guarantee, and warranty. I wasn't aware they didn't make their own bolts, just the carrier. So I never considered their bolt or QA could be an issue.
Though I am pre-tuner by age, I do know what you mean by everyone and his cousin jumping into every market selling low quality stuff. And it's not just with bargain priced merchandise. Buyer beware, it's everywhere.

Great thing about MDS is I can learn from others.

outrider58 · Jun 14, 2019

Ok, I was wr...I was wro.....I..was...wron...WRONG!

My apologies for giving bad information(to Motorcoach Doug and anyone else who was mislead by my recommendation) for the Toolcraft Nitrite BCG(https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa). I failed to do my homework. Not so much because the carrier has a nitrite finish, but because that carrier is lacking a chrome lined bolt receiver and chrome lined gas key. Those are biggies and I missed them.

On the bright side, anyone who owns TC BCGs is covered by their lifetime warranty. There is no mistaking there commitment to quality however and I, as a consumer, stand by there products.

I recently purchased one of their magnesium phosphate BCGs(https://www.armorally.com/shop/tool...-phosphate-bolt-carrier-group/?v=7516fd43adaa) and the requisite chrome linings and proper hardware.

I also bought one of the AO Precision BCGs. There seems to be little difference between the two(https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm). I'll leave others to judge.

Again, my apologies.

jrumann59 · Jun 14, 2019

outrider58 said:
Ok, I was wr...I was wro.....I..was...wron...WRONG!

My apologies for giving bad information(to Motorcoach Doug and anyone else who was mislead by my recommendation) for the Toolcraft Nitrite BCG(https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa). I failed to do my homework. Not so much because the carrier has a nitrite finish, but because that carrier is lacking a chrome lined bolt receiver and chrome lined gas key. Those are biggies and I missed them.

On the bright side, anyone who owns TC BCGs is covered by their lifetime warranty. There is no mistaking there commitment to quality however and I, as a consumer, stand by there products.

I recently purchased one of their magnesium phosphate BCGs(https://www.armorally.com/shop/tool...-phosphate-bolt-carrier-group/?v=7516fd43adaa) and the requisite chrome linings and proper hardware.

I also bought one of the AO Precision BCGs. There seems to be little difference between the two(https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm). I'll leave others to judge.

Again, my apologies.

That clown avatar must make it tough to admit when you are wrong....

omegared24 · Jun 14, 2019

outrider58 said:
Ok, I was wr...I was wro.....I..was...wron...WRONG!

My apologies for giving bad information(to Motorcoach Doug and anyone else who was mislead by my recommendation) for the Toolcraft Nitrite BCG(https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa). I failed to do my homework. Not so much because the carrier has a nitrite finish, but because that carrier is lacking a chrome lined bolt receiver and chrome lined gas key. Those are biggies and I missed them.

On the bright side, anyone who owns TC BCGs is covered by their lifetime warranty. There is no mistaking there commitment to quality however and I, as a consumer, stand by there products.

I recently purchased one of their magnesium phosphate BCGs(https://www.armorally.com/shop/tool...-phosphate-bolt-carrier-group/?v=7516fd43adaa) and the requisite chrome linings and proper hardware.

I also bought one of the AO Precision BCGs. There seems to be little difference between the two(https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm). I'll leave others to judge.

Again, my apologies.

You are a stand up person IMHO

I saw the spec sheet Clandestine was keeping on BCG's he was working on. His arguments come from pure evidence. If I were a manufacturer I'd love to get my hands on that data and use it in my marketing. Though, if I know Clandestine, he's planting seeds and it will pay dividends :thumbsup:

jstolz · Jul 3, 2019

clandestine said:
I have a very thorough write-up about NiB.

Short answer, it's no good.

Just read your write up. Thank you for the advice, going to save some money, time, and frustration. Skipping NiB

motorcoachdoug · Jul 4, 2019

outrider58 said:
Ok, I was wr...I was wro.....I..was...wron...WRONG!

My apologies for giving bad information(to Motorcoach Doug and anyone else who was mislead by my recommendation) for the Toolcraft Nitrite BCG(https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft_5-56_nato_black_nitride_bolt_carrier_group/?v=7516fd43adaa). I failed to do my homework. Not so much because the carrier has a nitrite finish, but because that carrier is lacking a chrome lined bolt receiver and chrome lined gas key. Those are biggies and I missed them.

On the bright side, anyone who owns TC BCGs is covered by their lifetime warranty. There is no mistaking there commitment to quality however and I, as a consumer, stand by there products.

I recently purchased one of their magnesium phosphate BCGs(https://www.armorally.com/shop/tool...-phosphate-bolt-carrier-group/?v=7516fd43adaa) and the requisite chrome linings and proper hardware.

I also bought one of the AO Precision BCGs. There seems to be little difference between the two(https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm). I'll leave others to judge.

Again, my apologies.

Hey we are ALL HUMAN which means we ALL will make mistakes in our lifetimes,Lord knows I have made mine way to many times in this life. No need to say you were wrong since you gave me a different viewpoint and opinion and forced me to dig deeper for info on why I chose the BCG that I did get. I have taken it to the range where I have at least ran about 700rds thru it so far and no trouble at all with it. knock on wood.. Thank you for for being a stand up guy and have the courage to admit before others that you were wrong.

vgplayer · Jul 4, 2019

How are the fully chrome BCG from Brownells? $150 https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...-bolt-carrier-group-chrome-mp-prod109980.aspx

If you could buy a BCG??

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